f5-res F5-RES Rules discussion

[martynk]

There has been some discussion on various posts about a new F5-RES class and what the rules should look like. This post is intended as a discussion post to hopefully pool some ideas. F5-RES kits and ARTF airframes are already available from various specialist suppliers.

1. Airframe construction and restriction rules should be the same as F3-RES.

2. Regarding open events, I can't see why the class could not be run in parallel (as a sub class) with existing F5J events to the same sets of rules.

3. If the class is to be run in parallel with F3-RES events then perhaps the following.

• Motor Run maximum 20 seconds
• Altitude limited to 130m

The reason for this is that you would need to limit how far upwind from the launch point a F5-RES could get - assuming its launched from the same line that a bungee launched F3-RES model is launched. F3-RES open rules use a 100m line and 15m bungee. Assume that a launch height of 100m plus any zoom gain. 130m seems reasonable as typically a F5-RES is carrying increased cross sectional area/drag and more mass - which would be advantageous in a breeze. This would also apply to a dedicated F5-RES event with a 6 minute flight task maximum

4. If the class is to be run in parallel with F3-RES small field events (e.g. BARCS postal) then perhaps the following.

• Motor Run maximum 15 seconds
• Altitude limited to 70m

 

Your thoughts please. It appears that there will be a couple of F5-RES events in the UK next year (2021) and it would be nice to influence any rules in advance of an event.

 

[Graham Lorimer]

I would be in, and see no issue with the two options proposed.

I think this would appeal to a number of people, like me, who just can not be bothered with the hassle of setting up a Bungee.

 

Graham

[DaveH]

Although I have a few 2m electric gliders, none will suit the RES format.  I plan to build from a couple of kits I have. These will need to be modified for electric power. The Andreas that I bought has a tiny motor/prop/spinner included, but the climb requirements of the new comp might make that setup of little use if it can't make the height in the time allowed.    Maybe, if I build the RES Eagle to accept a 28mm outrunner, I will be covered.    

[DaveH]

I'd like an early decision for the electric version requirements (battery/motor/height and run-time) to enable me to plan for a suitable power installation.  

[cirrusRC]

The Andreas climbs great with the hacker A10-7L geared option and 12x10 prop.

[paulj]

I like the rules proposed. I have a couple of questions, but as I haven't flown in F5J, they might be a bit naive:

• Would there be a similar calculation for launch height as with F5J, so that low launch heights can gain an advantage, or would it be a case of get to the launch height and just fly.
• I guess limiters would be required
• Would it be a 6 minute task in a 8 minute slot, so that launching as quickly as possible is not necessarily required? I guess this can lead to people waiting for the first pilot to lead the way, but on a positive side there wouldn't be a need to build a model with the highest power to weight ratio to get to launch height as quickly as possible.

I could have a go at electrifying my 60" Hi-Lite, or more likely make an electric fuselage for the MadRES wing, so I can do either/both!

[mikef]

 

4 hours ago, paulj said:

• Would there be a similar calculation for launch height as with F5J, so that low launch heights can gain an advantage, or would it be a case of get to the launch height and just fly.
• I guess limiters would be required
• Would it be a 6 minute task in a 8 minute slot, so that launching as quickly as possible is not necessarily required? I guess this can lead to people waiting for the first pilot to lead the way, but on a positive side there wouldn't be a need to build a model with the highest power to weight ratio to get to launch height as quickly as possible.

I don't think the apparent complexity of the F5J 'pay for your start height with time off your score' approach is appropriate for a 'simple' F5-RESclass.  [But you could use an F5-RES model in an F5J contest and have a separate prize for the top F5-RES model.]

A run time/altitude limiter would be required.

Having 'spare' time in the slot leads to the situation you describe - I note that F3-RES is a 6 minute flight in a 9 minute slot.  Since the motor run time is part of the flight time, I don't understand why a much higher rate of climb than (the cut-off height) dived by (the cut-off time) would be an advantage.  [Perhaps you are thinking of F5J where a fruitless search at low level for the first part of the 30 second run can be followed by a high speed climb to height before the 30 seconds are up.]

[paulj]

5 hours ago, mikef said:

Having 'spare' time in the slot leads to the situation you describe - I note that F3-RES is a 6 minute flight in a 9 minute slot.  Since the motor run time is part of the flight time, I don't understand why a much higher rate of climb than (the cut-off height) dived by (the cut-off time) would be an advantage.  [Perhaps you are thinking of F5J where a fruitless search at low level for the first part of the 30 second run can be followed by a high speed climb to height before the 30 seconds are up.]

Thanks for the comments Mike.  My misunderstanding - I thought the motor run time would not count towards the flight. In other words, as with hand towing, the flight time starts at the end of the motor run. I certainly hadn't considered the tactical F5J approach you explain. If the slot time is the same length as the maximum flight time, launches on the buzzer, and leaving the line as quick as possible gives the longest possible flight. For example, I am thinking Simon and John at the fly off in Radioglide in Redcar in 1996 (I think) - John came off the towline halfway up the climb, and pipped Simon by a second or so (if my memory serves me correctly). This issue (if it is an issue!!) disappears with slot times longer than maximum permissible flight times, and also if the motor run time is included in the flight time.

[martynk]

I agree that we should keep this simple. Let rules develop as they are needed. 

I think the F3-RES rules would be a good start.   6 minute flight in a 9 minute slot with (say) 120m launch height.  Motor run 30 seconds to minimise the power train requirements. We don't need missiles for this class. 

 

[John Minchell]

Missiles - quite the opposite is what my thoughts are. 

The cheapest and easy to obtain motor, ESC and battery combination which will get up to 120m (if that is the height decided) in 30 to 45 seconds.  And same as a bungee launched model - i.e. the time starts when off the line / motor stops.   6minutes in a 9 minute slot allows for the tactical pilots to see how the early launchers are doing before they launch - just need to curb the ability of the electric launch models to penetrate upwind further than the bungee launch models if they are flown in the same slot against each other.  By the same token, circle flying/kiting to stretch the bungee, then pinging off should be banned as well to curb excess launch height it gives, as well as the dangers of crossing/tangling lines.

John M

[EssexBOF]

43 minutes ago, martynk said:

I agree that we should keep this simple. Let rules develop as they are needed. 

I think the F3-RES rules would be a good start.   6 minute flight in a 9 minute slot with (say) 120m launch height.  Motor run 30 seconds to minimise the power train requirements. We don't need missiles for this class. 

 

As has been said in previous comment, a 6 minute flight time within a 9 minute slot, gives the chance of sitting out nearly half the flight time, to achieve a max. Needs to be 6 min within a 7 min slot time, to minimize this.

[martynk]

I would bow to your knowledge and experience every time.  I thought that the 6 in 9 basically allowed for a second attempt if the air was awful. 

[EssexBOF]

4 hours ago, martynk said:

I would bow to your knowledge and experience every time.  I thought that the 6 in 9 basically allowed for a second attempt if the air was awful. 

Ah, see where you are coming from now. So you could allow 2 attempts, in the slot with the first one cancelled if a second attempt is flown, but would suggest that the launch of the first attempt is within say 30 seconds of start of slot. F5j rules as they are now, only allow 1 attempt per slot.

[martynk]

Yep. That is basically it and is the way that the F3-RES rules work. 

So, you launch, you have about 2 minutes to decide if the first attempt is valid and get back of not.  You could still relaunch at 4 minutes into the slot but the best you could hope for would be a 5 minute flight score

[John Minchell]

I think also that the "come and try" format is worth some merit, as people can have a go and see if they like it and be guided by some experienced pilots.  Then a low key competition following on gets them to see that aspect as well.  A small element of a ground school on how to launch and find / core in thermals etc. all helps.

It has worked with F3K and also GPS triangle competitions - so no reason to think it wouldn't with F3/F5RES as well.

After all one of the goals is to get more people doing it - drone pilots and car racers may be a source of new blood, as well as older FF guys and existing thermal competitors.

John M

[DaveH]

There is (or has been until recently) a comp flown by the "esoaring" league that had a 10 minute flight to be made in an 11 minute slot.  (10 minute flights would be too much for 2m gliders).  This comp was flown by Open class (4m) gliders.

Restarts were allowed, there is no necessity to launch or relaunch within any other time frame (that I was aware of).  

Seemed to run well enough and didn't tie up the timer in extra tasks.  

 

[Gary B]

eSoaring is a BMFA discipline, it is divided into 'Open' and '2 metre' classes. The rules are on page 55 of the BMFA Silent Flight Handbook (downloadable from the BMFA website but not easy to find).

At the Nationals the two classes are run separately, in the one eSoaring competition that I entered the classes launched in the same slot but the set launch heights were set differently by the CD (can't remember but it was something like 200 metres for the 2 M class and 125 metres for the open class.)  I found it very complicated (three stop watches required).

BARCS has/had a similar fixed launch height discipline 'BARCS ELG' (rules in the BARCS Handbook) but that is being flown less often in favour of F5J.

Fixed height launches can be prone to 'rule bending', in F5J the exact launch height is confirmed by the timekeeper after every flight.

 

[DaveH]

In the Esoaring comps, the slot time and the flight time has to be timed.   I guess that the same will apply to the F5RES comps.

Two timing devices are used in Esoaring, but many use a third, often as a countdown timer (easier for the timerkeeper to relay the remaining time) and sometimes as a speaking clock.

[PeteMitchell]

 

Past experience has shown that it is good fun and a challenge to fly different class models in a competition. But it is hard to keep everyone happy and to try to ensure no one type has an unfair advantage.

Although not used much now (before Covid) BARCS Multi Launch rules are worth looking at.

The idea was/is to get all the models (whatever class) in the air before the slot time started. Electric powered models are height limited to allow line launch gliders to launch higher.

Extract from the rules book:

 Organisation of the Flying Slots

The slot time shall be of 10 minutes duration and shall be PRECEDED by

a 30 second pre-slot launch window. Models may be launched (or relaunched if applicable) at any time chosen by the competitor either during,

or after this pre slot launch window BUT timing can only commence once

the 10 minute slot has commenced and also AFTER the timing criteria for

the type of model apply

Change the times to suit whatever is decided. If you are considering a penalty for overflying the slot time then this also makes the CD’s job easier because all the models should land within the slot time and any overflight can be seen. The problem with using a target flight time within a longer slot time period is that each pilots flight time can only be confirmed by his timer.

Hope this helps.

 

[ceebee]

Quite right Peter. In my opinion, the main reason that esoaring went out of favour with many competition pilots was the fact that it was impossible to tell if there were any over flys and the end of slot timing countdown was quite off putting as it signalled the end of the complete slot and probably not the pilots 10 minutes.