FXRES in 2024

[Lawrence D]

I have come to conclusion that the singlehanded delivery of FXRES competition as per 2023 arrangement, is personally unsustainable for 2024.

It was envisaged that FXRES would deliver a simple, low investment event that is easy for clubs and individuals to operate for the benefit of local pilots. The strategic ambition was to introduce pilots to thermal soaring or provide a relaxed and enjoyable soaring event for more experienced pilots..... all with a view to growing the thermal soaring community and feeding pilots into other soaring competition classes. The investment in running events to date was intended to "pump prime" enthusiasm and commitment to regional events that will be run by local pilots.

In the face of demand for increasing complexity, I would suggest keeping FXRES rules simple and accessible for individuals and Clubs to encourage hosting of local events...for example landing bonus and flyoff are made an option. It also may be that there needs to be a sanction or time limit on people waiting extended periods for a flight attempt; perhaps competitors must work in pairs as a Team and/or the number of qualifying flights is increased to say 9 with a single discard?

I have seen the social media debate over running FXRES contests in "slots", but I think such a contest would be an F3L event in reality ; and I'd suggest one may as well run a full fat F3L event.... we have the BMFA owned regulation F3L landing tapes already and its seems there are a lot of pilots enthusiastic to support slot flying.

Just a quick thought on FXRES attendances- I think there should be a minimum of 5 pilots in either glider or electric competitions to constitute a valid league event so a pre-entry notification on this Forum seems to be a must...TBH maxing out on League points by being the only pilot in a competition is not really in the spirit of things; and is not exactly motivational for the CD!

Accordingly, I would ask people to step up and commit (here) to publicising and running one or more 2024 FXRES Regional event in their local area, in their local club, or at Buckminster on one of the FXRES weekends. I know a few people have already stepped up...if a Club has a suitable field then a comp open to all will boost club funds.

Similarly- who would be up to deliver or help deliver a F3L and a F5L event in 2024 on separate days- we really do need to get up to speed on these?

Lawrence

[andyharrold]

I would like to help.

I have provisionally got permission to run a round at Fish meadow. It will have to be on a Saturday , and obviously on a day when no other events are scheduled at the meadow.

 

[Andy Sephton]

 After an original idea by Martyn Kinder, I introduced F3-RES and F5-RES meetings at Buckminster to provide a low cost (relative to other silent classes) soaring event. The fact that it has been accepted by both BARCS and the BMFA Silent Flight Tech Committee as a National Event says a lot for the low cost formula. The events developed and were taken over on the understanding that the future goal would be to have a National Team capable of competitive flying in Europe.

Our current rules are based on the European rules in respect of model specification, but the running of the competitions is different. In Europe they run to slots, in the UK we fly whenever we want over a four hour period with the best six of ten flights to count. We decided to do it this way to make it simple. 
 

In practice, since the event is now a National Contest, the 'pot hunters' are waiting for good air before they launch. This technique prevents other entrants from using the bungee or take off slot, it ties up a timekeeper preventing them from flying and in the case of a bungee launch, reduces the bungee's efficiency. The days of it being a simple event are now in the past. Additionally, the limited and now reduced time available for flying has led to only one of the two events being available to contestants. 
 

Further, the addition of a landing box as well as a landing distance award has encouraged contestants to stand in the landing area creating a hazard for landing models. The landing box also favours contestants who fly in the middle rather than the end slots.

Recommendations for 2024:

- we need to go for a slot system. This will make the playing field fair. I also understand that software exists for this to be carried out by competitors using their mobile phones. It will also take us nearer to European Rules. 

- Either the landing box or the landing distance should be  removed. Removing the landing box will take us closer to Europe. 

- competitors should be allowed to enter both events. 
 

On the above basis, I'm happy to CD a single day at a couple of the Buckminster events in 2024

[Lawrence D]

5 hours ago, Andy Sephton said:

 After an original idea by Martyn Kinder, I introduced F3-RES and F5-RES meetings at Buckminster to provide a low cost (relative to other silent classes) soaring event. The fact that it has been accepted by both BARCS and the BMFA Silent Flight Tech Committee as a National Event says a lot for the low cost formula. The events developed and were taken over on the understanding that the future goal would be to have a National Team capable of competitive flying in Europe.

Our current rules are based on the European rules in respect of model specification, but the running of the competitions is different. In Europe they run to slots, in the UK we fly whenever we want over a four hour period with the best six of ten flights to count. We decided to do it this way to make it simple. 
 

In practice, since the event is now a National Contest, the 'pot hunters' are waiting for good air before they launch. This technique prevents other entrants from using the bungee or take off slot, it ties up a timekeeper preventing them from flying and in the case of a bungee launch, reduces the bungee's efficiency. The days of it being a simple event are now in the past. Additionally, the limited and now reduced time available for flying has led to only one of the two events being available to contestants. 
 

Further, the addition of a landing box as well as a landing distance award has encouraged contestants to stand in the landing area creating a hazard for landing models. The landing box also favours contestants who fly in the middle rather than the end slots.

Recommendations for 2024:

- we need to go for a slot system. This will make the playing field fair. I also understand that software exists for this to be carried out by competitors using their mobile phones. It will also take us nearer to European Rules. 

- Either the landing box or the landing distance should be  removed. Removing the landing box will take us closer to Europe. 

- competitors should be allowed to enter both events. 
 

On the above basis, I'm happy to CD a single day at a couple of the Buckminster events in 2024

Thanks for your support Andy,

Just a few obsevations re the FXRES rules:

1. Its important to get people into flying gliders and soaring competitions and have a set of rules that provides a simple consistent structure to support local participation where league points can be submitted from any qualifying event held anywhere.

2. The landing box was introduced as a safety measure - landing a model anywhere in the field seemed OK early doors, but not really saleable as a national event to the SFTC worried about compliance and risk.

2. The landing tapes help address issues described with landing box, but the non-availability of tapes is an obstacle for clubs or people to run a simple local soaring event. This is why  I think the landing bonus/tapes should be an optional feature in FXRES.

3. I suggest that a FXRES event run with slots may be an obstacle/complication for clubs or people who want to run a simple local soaring event.  With a bit of personal experience running these competitions, I think the use of Gliderscore (which does not have a bespoke FXRES setup) will require a significant increase in CD pre-work, more work on the day and require more equipment on the field.

4. The FXRES event as constituted runs itself and the CD is able to compete exactly like any other competitor ....otherwise the pilots who want to fly in competitions will need to find a CD who will be happy to give up the time without competing.

4. On pilots entering both classes on the day.... I recall complaints from several people saying that they were being roped into a disproportionate amount of the competition window timekeeping (when they could be flying) for people who were flying 2 classes on the day!  Conversely those people flying 2 classes could not put anything back by timing others as they were too busy! Equally people were complaining about pilots flying both events who brought along a dedicated timekeeper. Personally I'd prefer to keep it to a single class and move to a single discard of one flight out of ten attempts so everyone gets more intensive flying in on the day with less time to stand around waiting for a perfect thermal.

5. Notwithstanding above- if you want to run an event allowing pilots to enter both classes, fly in slots, and you use either tapes or a landing box..its your gig and your call  .. I will do my best to be there and have another great days flying.

Its not unreasonable to assume that there may be some significant International events for F3L and maybe F5L in 2/3 years where there will be opportunity for national representation, and if so it would be nice to have a choice of UK FxL pilots who have good experience in competing "person on person" in a rounds based event. We need to get some traction with one or more each of F3L and F5L events in 2024. Accordingly, if there is a strong preference by CD to do "FXRES with slots" then maybe they seriously consider running either a F3L or F5L event using Gliderscore that already has a F3L package installed?

 

 

[Pete in Northiam]

An open poll on the Facebook F3-RES and F5-RES - UK group came out 3 to 1 in favour of flying slots before the poll broke.  However, that poll was open to all members of the FB group.  Perhaps it would be useful to poll everyone who has actually entered the league for their choice, slots or not?  My own opinion is that the extra effort needed to fly slots will be amply repaid with a better, fairer contest and achieve more launches per day than the current, frankly rather disorganised, launch scheme - and with a planned lunch break too!  That is certainly the, admittedly subjective, impression I get from watching the F3K contests with whom we have shared Buckminster several times.  Can we learn/crib/borrow from the F3K CDs? 

I believe we should stick to a single strand of contest, ie FxRES.  I feel it is very valuable to have just one set of rules at this stage in class development.  Leaving it to CDs to decide on format would be detrimental.  

I also believe we can mix F3 and F5 in each slot with a little thought - why not? If this is too hard, I'd sooner give up spot landings in order to move to slots.  For people who want to run a simple local soaring event, there are many choices of class other that FxRES.  But I do agree that entering both classes - so up to twenty flights per pilot per day - was a step too far and this year's single-class contests went better than last.  That does not stop people flying one class at one contest and the other at the next.  

As for minimum contestants to make a valid contest, surely the best motivation to go fly is that everyone who does, scores?!  

In any case, I am up for CDing a one or two day meeting at Buckminster in 2024, dates TBA. 

However, I don't have a local field to offer.  None of the four local clubs where I fly has a field big enough for F3L bungees.  In fact only one has a field big enough for the short Postal bungees.  There are other clubs further inland eg Tonbridge or Invicta at Sutton Valence with large fields that might be interested but I suspect all are, sadly, on the wrong side of London for most of our entrants.  Sorry I can't really help on this.  

On that side, it might be interesting to also poll competitors whether we actually need more locations.  Two day weekend events at Buckminster, should that be possible, work really well from my position.  I think I travel futher than most and Buckminster seems reasonably well centred in the country compared to alternatives.  

Best wishes --Pete

Edited October 31, 2023 by Pete in Northiam
Lost connection while drafting

[Pete in Northiam]

On 26/10/2023 at 08:32, andyharrold said:

I would like to help.

I have provisionally got permission to run a round at Fish meadow. It will have to be on a Saturday , and obviously on a day when no other events are scheduled at the meadow.

 

That's great mate!  But excuse my ignorance Andy but where is Fish Meadow?  I couldn't find it on the BMFA Club Finder

[Alex Maxfield]

Hi Andy, Lawrence and all.

I'm a little bit worried about the apparent divergence of suggested rules for 2024, but we do have time to come to a conclusion before the flying season starts next year - and I think we do need to arrive at a commonly agreed set of rules for 2024 and a roadmap for rules going forward.

I also believe that BARCS is a suitable home for FxRES and I believe we can and should continue to support the FxRES initiative going forward hand in hand with the BMFA Silent Flight tech Committee.

On one hand I agree with a goal of holding formal F3L and F5L events in the UK - with all the challenges planning, commitment and benefits that will bring, but I also see the benefit of holding simpler events that the current set of FxRES rules provide. I think both are interesting and probably not exclusive.

Either way we need to see an evolution of published "UK" rules for Contest Directors to work with, assuring commonality of contest, permitting fairness, safety and allowing competitors to compete in annual leagues, and national events.

Nick Jackson, Jon Edison, myself and others are discussing how we can help with the FxRES vision, taking into account the views and the people who are contributing in these posts and those on FB - and I'm sure those who have not yet said their piece. Perhaps, and this is ONLY my view, we should establish an FXRES working group to help.

[Nick Jackson]

3 hours ago, Alex Maxfield said:

we do have time to come to a conclusion before the flying season starts next year

You'll want to get any changes into the BMFA rule book for 2024. We can do that, but time is actually pretty tight: this needs resolving in the next couple of weeks - three at the outside.

(Working backwards, I need to get any proposals for rule changes to Simon Vaitkevicius by the end of November. (Simon is the BMFA Technical Director, who puts together the rule books. I'm Silent Flight Technical Committee Secretary). Simon's rightly hot on any proposed rule changes having been fully considered by the SFTC and approved at a minuted meeting before they make it into the rule book. SFTC meets 27 November and will need a week or so before that to chew over drafts by email and suggest any amendments. Everyone will be keen to make this work and we'll get a shift on. There may be slight wriggle-room on deadlines - but that should not be assumed. If we don't get this wrapped up to the above timeline, amendments will not get into the BMFA rule book till 2025. That doesn't stop anybody running comps in the interim to whatever rules they want. But it would be really bad for FXRES if, having been recognised as a BMFA class, it spends 2024 in BMFA limbo flown to unofficial rules.)

[simonv]

23 hours ago, Nick Jackson said:

You'll want to get any changes into the BMFA rule book for 2024. We can do that, but time is actually pretty tight: this needs resolving in the next couple of weeks - three at the outside.

(Working backwards, I need to get any proposals for rule changes to Simon Vaitkevicius by the end of November. (Simon is the BMFA Technical Director, who puts together the rule books. I'm Silent Flight Technical Committee Secretary). Simon's rightly hot on any proposed rule changes having been fully considered by the SFTC and approved at a minuted meeting before they make it into the rule book. SFTC meets 27 November and will need a week or so before that to chew over drafts by email and suggest any amendments. Everyone will be keen to make this work and we'll get a shift on. There may be slight wriggle-room on deadlines - but that should not be assumed. If we don't get this wrapped up to the above timeline, amendments will not get into the BMFA rule book till 2025. That doesn't stop anybody running comps in the interim to whatever rules they want. But it would be really bad for FXRES if, having been recognised as a BMFA class, it spends 2024 in BMFA limbo flown to unofficial rules.)

Thanks Nick and look forward to seeing and implementing the rule changes. 

[Alex Maxfield]

Hi All, It may seem that it's gone quiet on this topic, but we are working behind the scenes.

The rule master, aka Nick Jackson, is drafting up a revised set of BMFA silent flight rules that will have rule sets for F3L, F5L and FxRES. The aim is to permit CDs to run competitions in 2024 with formal "slotted" competitions under FAI F3L and F5L rule sets and also allow CDs to run a more relaxed FxRES event (with some tweaks to the current rule set). In other words, it will be down to the CD of the event to choose which rules will be in force for any given event.

We hope to have something to share in the near future.

[andyharrold]

Many thanks for the update Alex. We all appreciate the time and effort that you, Nick, Lawrence and the others involved have put into next year's events.

[tonym]

On 30/10/2023 at 20:26, Lawrence D said:

I think the use of Gliderscore (which does not have a bespoke FXRES setup) will require a significant increase in CD pre-work, more work on the day and require more equipment on the field.

f3xvault has F3L/FxRES in their system - seems the American's ran some F3L/FxRES comps. in 2023 using it - https://www.f3xvault.com/?action=event&function=&disc=f3l

f3xvault is quite a lot easier on CDs than GliderScore. It's easy to give it a try, make up a test comp., get a few people to register and input scores - in fact I'll set one up now! Before GliderScore we (F3K, 200W/Kg, etc.) used a system just for timing the slots, my setup was/is a laptop and speakers. The F3K system was, (and is?) is very siimilar to the one @PaulR mentioned in this thread:

Our UK F3K pilots use f3xvault for their comps., F3F use it worldwide plus several other F-class around the globe.
f3xvault might suit F3L/FxRES better than GliderScore but I could be wrong

[PaulR]

On 30/10/2023 at 20:26, Lawrence D said:

I think the use of Gliderscore (which does not have a bespoke FXRES setup) will require a significant increase in CD pre-work, more work on the day and require more equipment on the field.

As I've just offered on the thread that John Minchell has started, I'd be happy to give an intro to F3XVault (as an alternative to GliderScore) for anyone who is interested.

Our use of the software (in F3K) has cut down on CD effort before and during the event. You're correct that any system that needs to make timing announcements does require more on field equipment of course and I'll also say that a working Internet connection is also very useful for F3XVault - but that hasn't been a barrier at any of the fields we fly at (and there are work arounds for this too).

In the (admittedly theoretical) situation of an event running to plan with no need to pause or re-fly and all pilots entering their scores correctly, it could be a case of hitting "play" at the beginning of the day and reading out the scores at the end of the day...

[Pete in Northiam]

On organisation for next year and flying at different sites with different CDs, should we also discuss where the contest equipment lives and how to get it to contests elsewhere?  

Maybe couriers are the answer. E.g Evri next-day door to door for 15kg is £11 each way. DPD 30kg is £17. Both probably cheaper than the petrol cost and a lot less driving. A small increase in entry fees (or less good wine for prizes!) could cover this. 

[tonym]

Thinking of club flyers with FxRES models, the simplest form of competition is 'all up, last down' - all pilots launch on a command, the last one down 'wins'. No timing or scoring equipment required. Banter mandatory - especially re. late launchers

For a slightly more formal event, we - the Ipswich RC Model Club - would run F5J-ish competitions that only required paper, pen and a smartphone or MP3 player with a 10 minute 'slot' sound file* on it. A clipboard is useful to hold the sheet down and make writing in the scores easier. If there were 6 pilots, 5 would fly a slot while the 6th acted as 'CD', then in the next slot the first 'CD' flies as another pilot becomes 'CD'. 'CD' checks all pilots are ready to launch, counts down with slot timer running, pilots launch all together (or at least in a 5 second launch window), pilots fly, pilots land, 'CD' notes who landed first, 2nd, 3rd and so on. Scoring is (with 6 pilots): first down gets 5 points, 2nd down 4, 3rd down 3, 4th down 2, and last down 1. At the end of the day the pilot with the lowest score 'wins'. If time and inclination are there, keep going, run the 'comp.' again, add the scores together and . . .

With these being club events what rules re. landing or whatever can be made to suit the pilots. Basically nothing matters, just fly, hopefully find good air and land at the end of the slot. Overfly penalty or not? Over 30 seconds from end of timing slot (6m 30secs.?) = max. score + 1 (6 in the case of 6 total pilots)? Decide this and other variations before the start. KISS!

Attached is a spreadsheet that can be added to if there's more than 6 pilots, otherwise just don't use all the rows/columns
Also an image of it too that could be printed straight out.
----
PS .xls spreadsheet actually made with LibreOffice but the BARCS site doesn't allow LO's native Open Document File types (.ods, .odt, etc) to be uploaded. Could these be added please @Austin

* I can supply an MP3 sound file with a 10 second countdown, 6 minute slot time with 2 min. & 1 min. calls and a 10 second countdown to the end of the 6 min. slot and include a 30 second end of the overfly time. PM me or mention that you'd like me to send you one in this thread.
Attached is a zipped up MP3 file with a 7 min. slot time from the F3KScore audio files to play with - 3 min. prep time should be removed. Audacity is a good program to use to edit or create sound files.

blank comp form.xls window_3_min_prep_7_min_working_30_sec_landing.mp3.zip

[Austin]

On 10/11/2023 at 13:53, tonym said:

PS .xls spreadsheet actually made with LibreOffice but the BARCS site doesn't allow LO's native Open Document File types (.ods, .odt, etc) to be uploaded. Could these be added please

These have been added.

[tonym]

34 minutes ago, Austin said:

These have been added.

Many thanks Austin.

[Lawrence D]

Hi Folks,

I've decided to step down from leading the formation and organisation of next year’s FXRES national programme. I'll be running one or two events at Cruckton in Shrewsbury and will enter as many other events as possible.

Getting FXRES and an event calendar off the ground with Martin in 2022, and delivering a competition programme over 2 years has been very fulfilling.  Kudos to Pete Newman who ran an event at Buckminster and thanks to all the pilots who have turned out to support events.

Hope to see you on the flightline in 24!

Kind regards

Lawrence

 

[andyharrold]

Cheers Lawrence, you and Martyn have done a great job.

Looking forward to seeing you there in 24.

[John Minchell]

Thank you Lawrence for all the time and effort you put into the class over the last few years.  Much appreciated.

Well chaps, that basically means that the rest of us need to step up and volunteer to CD the different events around the country.  From memory we should have a couple at Buckminster as well as Radioglide and the SF nats there.  One or two at Cruckton (Shrewsbury) as Lawrence mentions, Aylesbury and Fish Meadow at Upton on Severn that I can immediately think of.  More clubs or venues around the country would be welcome, but also someone to discuss/arrange with the club and book into the diary and then run them.  I suspect it will be the usual 3 or 4 people who step up to the plate but if this class is to flourish and grow we need more individuals who are prepared to do a bit of work.  If the workload can be spread across 6 or 10 people then it does not become a real burden for just the one or two like the last few years have been.  I will offer to post the events of the FB group and any weather calls with the event CD and to get all the dates onto the Barcs and BMFA calendars.  Over to you.