Jump to content

F3F turn styles - EM, dynamic etc...


Phil.Taylor

Recommended Posts

Phil.Taylor

How about a thread just for F3F turn styles?especially now that folks are trying out the Energy Management & Dynamic stylesvideos would be good, I know theres been some recently e.g. German Open, French VRPhil.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm going back to the full reversal (conditions permitting). I started 5 years ago using this style, tried others without much success and now I have the Needle its easier to do. Its far easier to get the straight line part of F3F right and accurate -ish EM very good, but you're flying a much bigger circuit.  I remember Greg and Joel flying back to back in the last Winter league. Greg flew a noticeably faster moving Alliaj versus Joels Fosa/Freestyler?  They were seperated by 0.10 sec! I was amazed as I and many others thought Greg had won the round by a decent margin

Link to post
Share on other sites
isoaritfirst

The reason why many of us wish to try to master the EM style is that there are a few slopes around; VR last year and WR next are prime examples where the technique is without doubt the better option. For racing on the edge at the Bwlch , you would probably have to be pretty damn good to beat the more simple technique of bank and yank.

Link to post
Share on other sites

EM is difficult in the sens that you have to adapt your EM turn to the slope. Everything depends on where is the wind gradiant. sometimes you don't need to climb to obtain the EM effect. A simple flat turn, but with the rigth snapflap/elevator settings is enough.It tooks me about 1 year of practice to start to fly correctly EM. Among the french pilots, there are differents style of EM. For example Alexis Marechal and Pierre Platon are usually climbing high to do the turn. On the BMFA nationals video posted by Tom, Greg is also truning very high.Then the question is to find the right balance between the height to do the turn, the gain of speed, and the path length, so the extra course you fly. Pierre

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
Phil.Taylor

Thanks Pierre - that need to adapt the style to the slope & conditions seems to be the tricky bit.I'm no expert, but I have tried practicing the really "flat" dynamic turn on a local low cliff - difficult, and scary in a good wind - the plane is coming back at you really fast out of the turn with the wind behind it.Phil.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I dont even Know what you would call the turns i was doing , doh.gif               i thought they was called slopey turns , hehe   I honestly dont know what they are called , sad.gifsad.gif                        Bob        

Link to post
Share on other sites
Scott Ravenscroft

Iv never really been a reversal kind of guy, but im going have a go at both, reversals and em.....

Link to post
Share on other sites
Phil.Taylor

Like Bob – my first F3F attempts (2007/8) were just "get it around the course anyway you can" bank & yank styleThen I noticed everyone else doing reversalsSo I learned to do nice tidy reversalsfunny thing is, my times got slower doh.gifand now I'm seeing folks who always used to do reversals…doing something else! smile.gif so I've given up on reversals too... Phil.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Rooster-X

I'm still a newbie at F3F and I find my style of flying doesn't suit reversals, so I bank and yank. Depending on how much lift I've got I vary the amount of yanking I get, Rich Bago gave me good advice last Sunday to get banked over early so that you can yank when you hear the buzzer, but as the day progressed I found myself anticipating the buzzer and yanking any way. Base A was the tricky one as it seemed to take longer than you thought to get it to buzz where as base B was straight forward enough. Some of my faster runs were ruined when I made a mistake and the model pinged out of the corner and nearly took my head off, I found this unsettling and put me off my rythm, not quite sure why it did this, maybe she gripped when I wasn't expecting it. Lots to learn, and I need a better plan for landing in rotor, all my home slopes are a lot easier to land than the F3F comps I've done, got a Xenon to fix  Tom

Link to post
Share on other sites
simon_t

Tom, if you are finding that the model sometimes comes back at you and catches you out, try a practice session on a slope in fairly consistent conditions and play around with the aileron differential - Note your current settings, then make a fairly coarse change (e.g. 20 or 25% difference) increase or decrease (doesn't matter which to start with) and fly a few courses. See if the model tends to generally roll out more away from the hill or more pointing in towards you.  Now try 25% in the opposite direction of diff from your current setting, and fly the same courses again.  Once you have established whether you need more or less differential, you can then fine tune in 5% increments until it best suits you.  You may need to do this a few times in different conditions until you get the turn response you like.  I have said it quite a few times to folks, that I find differential one of the most crucial and yet hardest thing to set up on an F3F machine. Simon

Link to post
Share on other sites
Rooster-X

Cheers Simon, will have a play with the differential settings next time I'm on the slope. Tom

Link to post
Share on other sites

You know how most people struggled with base A on the weekend, feeling that there may have been a slight divergence (I think there was a little bit), I don't think that the divergence was the major contributing factor. One thing that I noticed (which I didn't think we would be at all sensitive to :blink: ) was that the wind direction thingy was often stood behind as it was assumed that it was the centre of the course.

The wind meter was a few feet from the centre towards base B and the round that I cut in was the one time that I stood behind the wind pointer rather than the centre post. I recognised in my plane for the first time at the weekend, that my differential might have needed looking at. I noticed that if I corrected the ailerons AT ALL while I was executing a turn with the elevator, I lost HEAPS of speed and wobbled all over the place. When I managed to put the plane on an angle where I don't need to correct it's heading: A) it makes me look like a reasonable stick twiddler and B) the plane flies much faster.Often people have said that the less you correct the heading between bases, the faster you will go.

This is true (to a certain extent, depending on how much energy is to be gained from aggressive compression hogging) but I would say the most crucial part of each leg is the turn and its exit. I'm only new to this but it is what I have felt so far. Other views may be (probably will be) different. One of the most rewarding things about this F3F lark is the learning that comes with it. 

P.S. Sorry you were having trouble with your landings Tom, you should have said something on the day and I would have suggested to walk to a nicer landing area (top of the hill beyond Base B) :blush: 

P.P.S. my turn styles vary from leg to leg with the dying lift. Mostly I like to 3/4 or full reversals.Tried the EM style turn and need lots more practice because it requires a different turn judgement. I also have not been able to fill a plane full enough to really benefit from that style.

Link to post
Share on other sites
isoaritfirst

Heres a bit I posted on RCM&e in response to a few questions but it may help on th esubject of differential. Hi Alex,1) Transmitter differential is just a predefined mix made by the manufacturer to make programming your transmitter a little easier.If you have curves in your transmitter then that is an alternative place to make a diff, just by re shaping the curve. End points may make the throws reach their end point when the stick is at half way position so may not be a good choice.

Should be easy to see if this is happening with your transmitter.2) If you understand the logic then diff is probably not of a lot of use on a smaller model, But you may like its effect, so really its a suck it and see. Watch closely and you will see how it effect the line of the fuz when ailerons are applied. Conditions are the biggest variable in turning nice. A small amount of cross wind will change the turn dramatically.----------------------------- Hi ALex,On a 60" I would probably settle on around 40% diff. But it is very dependent on what you want from your flying. I like my models to pull slightly around the bank if that makes any sense.

Describing it another way - in a f3f style turn the tail lifts slightly pointing the nose through the turn. Remember that the up going aileron will create less drag than an equally moving down going aileron. So when banking for a turn with no diff the higher wing creates more drag and gets pulled back creating a nose high fuz line.

Dial in more diff than the required amount to even out all the drags and the lower wing will create more drag and the nose will pull down into the turn, and the tail will sit high. I like a small amount of this to push the fus line down through the turn. But when doing straight rolls across the slope it may show as a slight barrel in the roll.It also means that all this reduction of aileron travel will soften your responses, But most model will perform just as well with less movement than many people set in. 

V tail rudders, I have found that most of mine work nicer for being restricted in their throws. adding in lots of rudder when you only have small elevator throws can start to get ugly, as the rudder inputs will also apply some degree of elevator input.

Link to post
Share on other sites
isoaritfirst

As to landings, I became concerned about the amount of rotor later in the day so looked for a new landing area, I found one and told a few others who agreed it was much better.But a friend who used the spot asked me how I knew it would be better, glibbly I suppose, I just said experience. But its all pretty easy stuff really if you stop for a moment and think about it.The first thing is to not just follow everyone else, most people were landing in what I considered to be very much the wrong place. 

Wrong place = rotor, rotor is caused by the hill being higher at the lip than on the landing zone, or a very sharp lip. Its pretty easy to predict where it is likely to occur.  Right place = no lip, landing zone higher than the lip. head of a gully etc can create small rotor free zones along what are generally cliff faces. 

On Sunday the grasses were long enough to clearly see what was happening at ground level and gave a decent indication of what to expect.  So pick your spot with care, if its the first time on the slope have a walk around and plan out where you are going, use your transmitter aerial string as a helpfull guide , or throw a few grasses into the air.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Scott Ravenscroft

Ok, can someone please explain whats happening to a plane during the em turn, and dynamic, just so i have a better understanding of it. Scott

Link to post
Share on other sites
Phil.Taylor

Scott Ravenscroft said:

Ok, can someone please explain whats happening to a plane during the em turn, and dynamic, just so i have a better understanding of it. Scott
plane goes fastplane keeps going fast throughout turnplane flies longer course - wider turns(and some subtle stuff about using the wind to gain energy coming back at the slope out of the turn - on a cliff-edge-type-slope) But I thought you were the UK expert - with the ballasted up WizF3F ?
Link to post
Share on other sites
isoaritfirst

Bums in the air. When you get the wind up, a reversal is fine When you get wind in your face, dynamic is best. Basically its all about hanging your bottom into the wind.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
  • Who's Online   15 Members, 0 Anonymous, 36 Guests (See full list)

    • Garry C
    • AnthonyB
    • Lloyd_d
    • Phil.Taylor
    • mikef
    • Roger M
    • lukesb
    • pete beadle
    • John Minchell
    • heli_bee
    • Buzz
    • Shane
    • BEAN
    • Marc RC pilot
    • isoaritfirst
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.