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Jef Ott

New Rules effect on Multi Launch Comps

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Jef Ott

Great comp at Lawford today.Conditions were variable to say the least, with the first slot of round 1 flown in the low cloud, which had lifted by the 2nd slot. Lift was very light during the middle of the day, and only slightly stronger at both ends. If there was strong lift, it was very short-lived. This really sorted the men out from the boys, and the results were truly representative of the thermalling skills displayed on the day. Winds were very light throughout the session and the drift stayed mainly East / North Easterly.

The over-all champ was Jason Burns flying his electric powered Height Limiter equipped Stork, so congratulations to him. Brian Austin put in a solid performance for second place, Peter Mitchell taking Fourth place.I am sure that Tony Merritt will put a full report on the BARCS Site somewhere.The Classic winch-launched gliders were still very slightly outclassed despite the 150m Height limiter setting imposed on the electric models, but they were more competitive than they had been before the rule change (HL was previously 200m).

I suspect that had there been a modern F3j presence this would have proved most successful, but there were no such models at the comp.The big difference caused by the change in HL setting though, in my opinion, was that DLGs are now in with a chance, proved by Jason Burns second entry getting third place over-all. Two other DLGs were flown and gained 12th and 13th places, somewhere between the other winch-launched gliders.

Everyone seemed to enjoy themselves and there was very little (if any) carnage, despite this being the first comp of the year, for most of the pilots.BIG Thanks to Tony M for putting on a comp that I will remember for a long time. :D:D:D

Jef

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Austin

Sounds like a great day Jef and glad to hear the new rules proved successful :)

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Jef Ott

Yesterday saw the second MLG Comp at Lawford this year.

Conditions were vastly different to the first one (detailed above), with a strong westerly bringing rain and hail, so we stopped and regrouped at the pits a couple of times!

Amazingly, the blustery wind did not change the profile of results greatly.

Open electric models took the top places.

DLGs were in the middle of the board.

Despite the breeze and one or two excellent launches from the winch, which I would say looked to be up to about 175m, the Open glider guiders were disadvantaged by the lack of people at the event. A 2-man team is not really viable for winch launching; I really felt sorry for Tom and Trevor, and would have helped with retrieval of the line, had I not been timing for Jason in practically every slot I wasn't flying in, as Jason was flying two classes and I was flying one, in the 'three slots per round' event.

In light of this, and because I want to see Tom and Trevor competing for years to come, I will take Open gliders with me to the next Lawford Multi Launch event (12th August). A 12 foot rudder elevator model (which I have not flown for more years than I care to remember) lives in my hangar, and might be OK in light weather.

Phil James' old Calypso Contest still flies well on the slope, so will probably do OK in a strong blow off a winch. Of course, this will mean I have to use Tom / Trevor's winch and I dare say they will be welcoming of the assistance that I can offer in exchange, but I will take a DLG along as well, just in case.

If anyone that knows Tom and Trevor could pass this info on to them, I would appreciate it.

Really hope Tony Merritt feels better, and really missed competing against him yesterday.

Best regards to all UK model fliers.

Jef

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jiberjaber

Yes - an interesting day with a couple of moments when I was sure I had perhaps started one too many turns over a tree! Pretty close flying was needed to eeeeck out that last bit of slope off the trees when it went flat..

I did hear Tom and Trevor talking about using 2 winches bolted together next time... I think the the US they use 2 winches with one providing a return - no idea how it works or if it would be compliant with BARCS rules but might be worth investingating to help them keep going?

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tomf

Hi All

Yes Trevor and Tom did struggle a bit especially as Trevor is so disabled. We have discussed using two winches side by side so that we do not have to retrieve the line for a relaunch. We can launch on one and wind down so that the line does not hinder the relaunch. I cannot see that having two winches available is against the rules but am sure that someone will know. At Open comps when we fly with the Bromley lads we have their winch and ours close together and use each others for a second launch if the first line is not retrieved in time. We both enjoy our comps and do not want to stop competing. Using two winches will help us when there are just the two of us. Jef, there will not be a porblem with you using our winch and we would be grateful for any assistance we can get at Lawford.

Many thanks to Tony for running the comp and also the support of our fellow flyers is greatly appreciated.

All the best

Tom pp Trevor

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tomf

Hi All again

I have had a lengthy discussion with Trevor and we feel that we need to clarify the estimation of launch height of our models. We are using a measured 150m winch line to the turnaround, which is shortened at launch because we are winding in the line by a minimum of 30m. Tom is flying a 100" Eliminator and is launching at approx 130-140m on a good launch. Trevor is flying his 150" Silhouette and he is getting around 110-120m on his best launches, both of us are below this if we do not hit the launch and release perfectly.

I hope this will clarify why the launches on my 2.5m Eliminator appear to be higher as it is a smaller model and will look higher than a 3.5-3.7m electric model.

Tom pp Trevor

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Jef Ott

Hi All again

I have had a lengthy discussion with Trevor and we feel that we need to clarify the estimation of launch height of our models. We are using a measured 150m winch line to the turnaround, which is shortened at launch because we are winding in the line by a minimum of 30m. Tom is flying a 100" Eliminator and is launching at approx 130-140m on a good launch. Trevor is flying his 150" Silhouette and he is getting around 110-120m on his best launches, both of us are below this if we do not hit the launch and release perfectly.

I hope this will clarify why the launches on my 2.5m Eliminator appear to be higher as it is a smaller model and will look higher than a 3.5-3.7m electric model.

Tom pp Trevor

Good point Tom.

In the Bartletts series of electric comps, however, I fly an 100" model too, and as it is equipped with a data logging height limiter and a very minimal power set-up, I often see the model 25-40m short of it's 200m target (when the batteries are cold etc.) and spend a lot of time reviewing the launch heights and battery temperatures, so feel I have a fair eye now for estimating the height of similar sized models. One of your Eliminator launches (when the wind was particularly sprightly) required very little effort from the winch, and you got the ping absolutely right, I am sure that if you have a data logger fitted it will confirm my estimate of 175m. The comment regarding launch height was in reference to that launch (I put "one or two excellent launches from the winch" because there may have been more launches of that same quality, but I only witnessed one).

Thanks for accepting my offer, in exchange for use of your winch / winches, I am looking forward to completing the set (having already participated in MLG Comps with electric models and DLGs) and hopefully my assistance will aid your efforts making the event more competitive. It would be great to see one of Trevor's models whooping the bling brigade!

I don't suppose the rules can be read to eliminate multiple winch sets. What a great idea!

See you in August,

Jef

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tomf

Hi jef & others

Thanks for the reply. I do not have a data logger to put in the model so cannot comment on maximum launch height with any accuracy, however as I said we are winding in line (minimum 30m to a max of 50m, measured by pacing out retrieval) and I would be very surprised (pleased!) if my model did reach 175m. Our estimation is at best 140m when compared to the electric models in the same slot.

Trevor is lower because of (a) size and (B) the build of his model is not up to a full winch launch so I have to be careful and pulse the winch to get the model as high as possible within these constraints.

We do however sometimes get good scores and we estimate that we should get approx 75% of the winning model scores which we consider to be a good result as both of us fly home built models. My Eliminators (I have 3) are built exactly to plan so no exotic materials are used. Trevors models are also built to plan and again no exotic materials are used.

In the pipeline are some new models using carbon reinforcement and a different spar setup so these models will (should?) take a full winch launch. At present these are under test and we hope to be able to use them maybe later this year.

We are setting up both winches at the moment to make it easier for me to set up on the field, our second winch has a tensioner device fitted so that any model can be launched safely. We have launched various models from lightweight 2m to 4m scale gliders on the second winch with complete safety.

We are looking forward to having more glider guiders in multilaunch comps and both Trevor and I are more than willing to assist you in the comp.

Tom pp Trevor

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Jef Ott

Thanks Tom (and Trevor), for the use of your winch, and the patience exercised in my training period, at the Lawford Multi Launch Comp on Sunday 12th Aug.

It was a jolly good day for me - and thanks to your efforts I got a tremendously encouraging score, with the Calypso Contest and its first time on a winch for at least 15 years. My talking for you in return, seemed to be riddled with bad advice, for which I can only apologise.

Hoping you can get the Silhouettes back on song for the next Multi Launch Comp.

Jef

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tomf

Hi Jef

Many many thanks for all your help on Sunday, made my day easier and more enjoyable.

Grateful thanks to Tony for an excellent comp and a very good day.

Regarding Trevor's radio problem, we have found the problem and it is now solved. The trouble was traced to the battery connection plug on the transmitter circuit board, as the trannie was moved the plug on the board was moving, the male part of the plug is soldered onto the board with 2 little pins which were very loose in the board. When trannie was shaken it was making and breaking the connection so effectively switching on and off. I have resoldered the connection and all seems well now. Further testing will take place at various times to make sure the connections are secure.

Tomf

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EssexBOF

I was never much in favour of the launch height being lowered to 150 metres for Electric Models, and the counter to this occured in Sheppey last weekend where they held a Multi Launch where the wind was brisk!! and the F3j models were out launching the only electric model there that being a Stork.

The main argument against the Electric models is that with the 30 second motor run they can penetrate upwind, whereas the winch launched F3j models are fixed to a given release point, even though well launched F3j models will get to very nearly 200 metres with a good ping.

Most electric models nowadays are not marginal on the power they have and it would have been better to set the limiters to a shorter run time, thus cutting down on the penetration so as to get to the height set.What that would be I would suggest 20 seconds instead of 30

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satinet

do you account for winch launching in cross wind conditions. I.e if you launch off a winch you model will tend to get blown round by the wind. Does this interfere with the electric models being launched?

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jiberjaber

Well all launch in a 30 second window before the 10m starts so most of the electric are gone before the winch is let rip, most winches seem to go about 10 sec or so before the 10m starts. 

 

It does cause a bit of a hazard to DLG as the line float down, but its not too bad s long s you have seen where it has drifted.

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Jef Ott

Blimey Brian! I thought the launch height discussion was over and done with, last year. :rolleyes:

We (in my opinion) have a set of rules that treat a very wide variety of electric and winch models as fairly as possible already.

Yes, in some conditions, certain models (of both types of 'Open' model) will get a better launch than others, but that has not been a problem lately has it?  Or are you saying that there are too many "well launched F3J type" models and not enough 3kw hotliners participating? :D

As has been demonstrated many many times, it's not what you fly, it's where you fly. Electric models have the ability to launch in ANY direction... 360 degrees, not just upwind... and this is where the thermal savvy electric pilot can capitalise on his flexibility over the poor tethered winch launcher. ;)  

As for restricting electric launch times, would that eventually be self-defeating? Fliers would have to spend more on their power trains, and it may promote models that can overcome their height limiters more readily.

At the last Lawford MLG comp, there were two or three electric fliers starting soon after the start of the 30second launch window. If you do away with 10 seconds of their launch time it is not exactly encouraging them to participate.

Hmmm. I hadn't considered DLG pilots being worried about the descending launch lines - the only times I have flown DLGs in MLG Comps, it has been quite calm, so the launch lines have been rewound to about 100m radius from the turnaround, after the launch. This arc being well out of my DLG launch reach.

Perhaps a pennant instead of the (seemingly standard) parachute would give a faster descent of the launch lines in higher wind strengths, with a more vertical descent from the apogee... Do you think this might help, Jason? It shouldn't be too difficult to implement as a trial.

In answer to Satinet's worry about winch models being "blown around in the wind"... As a pilot that has flown Multi Launch Comps with the other disciplines (Electric and Winch), I personally find the electric models more of a worry (when relaunching in those 3-minute-air slots) when flying from a winch, than vice versa.

The electric models CAN be launched virtually anywhere in the sky (avoiding the winch line areas completely) but with Sod's Law playing its part, whenever I need a relaunch on a winch, invariably have to wait while electric models, launching over the lines from one side or the other (and both sometimes), clear the area. It's a good job none of us take it too seriously!  :P

Does anyone have any views or suggestions that we can try, to improve participation in MLG comps?

I would like to see DLGs given a better chance, with a greater bonus for re-flights, from personal experience I think 4 seconds is a more realistic turnaround time. 

Best regards to you, whatever your favourite discipline.

Jef

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Richard Swindells

I would like to see DLGs given a better chance, with a greater bonus for re-flights, from personal experience I think 4 seconds is a more realistic turnaround time. 

 

The issue is that DLG turn around times can be sub 1 second. WIth no max flight time for any DLG individual flight, I could get a 8-9 minute flight , then do three quick turn arounds, stand on the middle of the spot and catch the model, score 10:02 and get a max landing.

On the right day, with the right weather a DLG could win the event with > 10 minutes score because of the re-launch bonus making it impossible for any other discipline to win, regardless of how good their flying.

I think for DLG some adaptation of the 1,2,3,4 minute task (i.e. four flights, with a 1,2,3,4 minute max in any order) would provide a more realistic challenge. The final flight of the slot MUST be a traditional landing (no hand catches) and must be > 10 seconds (to avoid standing on the spot, catching at 9:59 and dropping the model on the spot to count as the last flight)

or have I been thinking about this too much?

 

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Robin Sleight

I am very puzzled by these "New Rules".  If this is supposed to be a comp as relevant to the BARCS league the rules (which can only be changed next come the AGM in May 2016) still say 175m for electrics - There are no New Rules but the CD has obviously chosen to interpret a suggestion that this limit be thought about again as a done deal.  I personally was never in favour of the 175 number and felt 150 was better but that was what the 2013 AGM voted for so that still is the number in the formal rules as set out in the current version of the BARCS Handbook.

Robin

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Jef Ott

I love a bit of confusion! 

Richard answered a thread that had lay dormant for 2 and a half years.

Also, Richard seems to be unaware that if the model hits anyone (including the pilot) the flight receives a zero score.

Robin is quite right about the rules currently in use. They changed after this thread was originated.

Unfortunately the Multi Launch format is dead anyway, so there is no point in discussing it further.

:)

 

 

 

Edited by Guest

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grj

Jef

 

Thirty one people have competed in Multilaunch this season, albeit over only two events, I think talk of it's demise is a little premature.

 However in a scene stuffed with pure electric events and where the majority of winch launch enthusiasts now fly moulded models and mostly compete in F3J, it's finger hold is very tenuous. The issue is more about having the right event in the right place, at the right time, a difficult balance these days.

 

G

 

 

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Richard Swindells

Had missed the date on the thread... was just reading mentions of multilaunch discussion at the agm, so came here to see what was current in discussion... without realising that thread 5or6 was several years old!

I remember tip catching and relaunching at my first ever multilaunch so did not realise that the formalised rules had banned this

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Jef Ott

I think you just got away with it that once Richard. As far as I am aware, the rules have never made allowance for catching the model. Clarification was sought at one stage early on, and it was made known at that time that all models must land for the scores to count in multi-launch.

Just out of interest, Richard, what would your turnaround time be, if you had to land and pick the model up? Do you still think that 2 seconds is a reasonable bonus for a relaunch? 

 

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