Model Flying and the National Trust

[Bear]

At the local site in Cornwall (St Agnes) we have had alot of incidences this year of powered aircraft flying. The types of models being flown have included powered assisted gliders, electric ducted fans, multiplex fun jet type models and even on one occasion a I.C. helicopter. Unfortunately this has led to some bad feeling even amongst the regulars. It is not helped by no-one knowing what the rules are regarding flying on NT land. I have spent some time trying to find out what the position is, and here is a link to what the NT say. 

 

http://www.nationaltrust.org.uk/article-1356393448653/

 

IMHO the rules as the NT see them are quite clear. What are the members views on this?

I have started this discussion on the BARCS part as I realise this is could be a bit of a contentious issue and might be best discussed on the none public part of the forum.

Mr moderator please move the topic if you think otherwise.

Roger

[satinet]

as far as I am aware the default position, if local rules are not in place, is unpowered flight only on NT land.

The National Trust welcomes non-powered model flying on its land, recognising that the activity seldom causes significant disturbance, provided particular care is taken with regard to other visitors, livestock and birds.

It seems pretty clear that this mean non powered gliders. Especially in the context of "seldom causes significant disturbance," which doesn't really apply to misery-jets and the like.

The types of model you mention is exactly why I have been strongly against the allowance of powered models at my local slope soaring sites. The impossibilty of defining what is and isn't a "powered glider" vs what is a powered rc model.

I guess there isn't much lift for gliders at Staggy.... :eek:

[Bear]

Theres nearly always lift at Staggie, but of course you have to be on the correct slope! About a month ago I arrived to find 6 or7 people from a local club all flying on the SW slope with electrics. They didn't want to move to the NW slope which the wind was on.

[Rooster-X]

Do you have a local club flying there or is it a free for all? I must admit I flew there several years ago with my trusty M60 and Wasabi and I just turned up and flew, nobody else was there and I didn't see any signs stating what can and can't be flown.

At the Hole of Horcum they have signs telling people they need to be a member of the local club (http://www.nymrsc.org.uk/) if they want to fly and I think the NT ranger does a good job of patrolling it for them.

Maybe time to put some signs up with the support of a local club.

Tom

[Austin]

Agree with tom about signs somewhere on or near the site. The site should be registered with BMFA if not already. If there are problems with power flyers get the BMFA involved and NT rangers have powers to inforce the rules and chuck offenders off. Once people get the massage they generally go elswhere.

[Bear]

There is not a local club that "organize" St Agnes it has always been turn up and fly. Will contact the BMFA to see if the site is registered.

[isoaritfirst]

NT = no power

NT = BMFA membership

Fly power lose your BMFA membership

Fly power lose your NT slope

Lose your friends

If you have fliers that fail to understand these simple rules then explain them to them.

If they choose to ignore these rules, report them to the BMFA.

It they dislike these rules then they should try to change them.

Flouting them will damage the enjoyment of our sport.

I always insist that all props are removed from any model which flies on the Long Mynd.

Noise is only one issue.

Power requires no slope, or the wrong slope, so it won't be long before some D ic k (or Harry) will be flying power over the car park and picnickers etc.

Tell them, explain to them - nicely just how much damage they are doing, they may be well behaved and flying assisted gliders but it opens doors to hot ships and screaming ducted fans etc. they may understand.

[Bear]

Things have moved on a bit at St Agnes

I contacted the NT and the BMFA with regard to powered flying at St Agnes The outcome is that the local power flying club have been informed that their members cannot fly any powered models there. I spoke to the Head Ranger for Cornwall and he was very friendly suggesting that the gliders were an attraction at St Agnes and he has had issues there this summer and is looking into signs prohibiting powered flying. He has provided me with his phone number to be distributed amongst the local flyers.

Also thanks to David Phipps from the BMFA for interceding and offering help if the problem occurs in the future. Encouragingly we did not have a large group of powered models at the site last Tuesday or Thursday which had become the norm over the last month.

So hopefully peace and calm will return to "sunny Cornwall" and we can go back to being a friendly lot welcoming of all visitors.

Roger

[isoaritfirst]

Great news Roger,

A big thank you from me for taking such positive action.

[Bear]

Oh Dear its all gone terribly pear shaped!

On Monday while a few of us were out enjoying the slightly better weather, the local power club Redruth and District Model Flying Club arrived with a selection of electric powered models. These ranged from a Playboy through to a Blaze. Straight away one gentleman launched his easy glider type thing right by the cars which did a great big powered loop over the backs of our heads and smashed into the tarmac behind the cars. The motor still twitching when he walked over to it, pretty sure he didn't know how to throttle back. I went and took a picture of his car number plate. All hell broke lose, I was accused of bullying a 80 year old man. (this refers to an incident in the summer when I was not even in Cornwall) in fairness one of the Seven Noble Warriors did apologise for this when the facts were pointed out to him.The others however were in full flight, there chosen weapon? loud disparaging remarks made so that I could hear them behind my back. The sort of thing you would get in a playground. For instance suggesting that as I have a disabled badge I shouldn't be able to launch a model. It would of been quite nasty if the people making the accusations were not so pathetic. Now i should state here and now that i've often been accused of being a bully before. It gets to me because i've taken a good few kickings over the years, not to mention being shot, stabbed and poisoned standing up to genuine bully's. So I am sensitive to the accusation. Anyway I did react and tell them in no uncertain terms what I thought of them. My mate Danny (72) packed up his stuff and sat in his car so intimidated was he. But i am a stubborn git and refused to back down despite having six people screaming at me. I know they have used this tactic against others at St Agnes who no longer fly there. Apparently I should never of raised this issue on a forum and everything is my fault.

 When I got home I immediately contacted the BMFA to speak to Dave Phipps but he was in a meeting and I was told he would ring me back. He didn't and so I rang again today to find out he is on leave now. Manny would contact me. Finally he contacted me this afternoon. Manny had been told a completely different story and had received letters from the other participants. As i understand it he reckons that there is no reason that powered assisted gliders should not be allowed at St Agnes. Further it appears that the BMFA will be backing the R&DMFC in there application to the National Trust for this to be allowed. 

Those of us who are glider flyers are trying to form our own club just for people who want to fly gliders. But it looks like there will not be enough support for a gliders only rule. Most want to acquiesce to the BMFA and allow power assisted gliders. I cannot see this working and ultimately think that we will lose the site completely. As a member of the National Trust I am seriously thinking of starting a petition up at St Agnes to ban powered flight but realise this could backfire.

Any advice from cooler heads than mine welcome.

 

PS If you want to know what the lift was like on Monday which meant they had to have electric assist here's a picture of the playboy flown completely without power for the duration of the flight.

[Phil.Taylor]

When I got home I immediately contacted the BMFA to speak to Dave Phipps but he was in a meeting and I was told he would ring me back. He didn't and so I rang again today to find out he is on leave now. Manny would contact me. Finally he contacted me this afternoon. Manny had been told a completely different story and had received letters from the other participants. As i understand it he reckons that there is no reason that powered assisted gliders should not be allowed at St Agnes. Further it appears that the BMFA will be backing the R&DMFC in there application to the National Trust for this to be allowed.

Well done for "sticking to your guns" - and the official NT line on this

Will be interested to hear what the NT have to say about this

and what "Manny" (who is this idiot?) has to say to them?

If they waved this through it would open up a whole can-of-worms on all other NT slope sites

heres the relevant NT page (not easy to find these days)

http://www.nationaltrust.org.uk/article-1356393448653/

Phil.

[Bear]

I tried to ring Manny back later but as yet he has not returned my calls. I want to confirm that he has spoken to David Phipps about this. When I spoke to Dave in November he had no doubts about the NT policy.

[oipigface]

I tried to ring Manny back later but as yet he has not returned my calls. I want to confirm that he has spoken to David Phipps about this. When I spoke to Dave in November he had no doubts about the NT policy.

As others have pointed out, the NT rule is very clear, and almost impossible to misunderstand. Are you sure that St Agnes is NT land? This is the only explanation I can think of for Manny's. quoted remark.

[Phil.Taylor]

 

As others have pointed out, the NT rule is very clear, and almost impossible to misunderstand. Are you sure that St Agnes is NT land? This is the only explanation I can think of for Manny's. quoted remark.

 yes - handed over to NT in 2006 - best I could find...

"St Agnes Head and nearby Trevellas Coombe have been passed to the trust so that their wildlife, prehistoric archaeology and public access can be maintained and protected."

http://www.accessmylibrary.com/coms2/summary_0286-15056886_ITM

http://www.planningresource.co.uk/news/557506/

[isoaritfirst]

Is it appropriate or allowed for models to be flown in the carpark. This is surely what will happen if powered flight is allowed.

Hardly appropriate behaviour for a very popular tourist spot. 

There are thousands of places where power can be flown and so few where pure slope gliders can.

 

Well done Bear for taking action. 

 

The BMFA need to get their act together and protect these valuable sites.

The Power may have been slow and gutless "assisted " gliders in this case - but there is no way that a rule can be enforced based on power to weight etc. So full no power is the only rule that works. Yes it can be a nuisance there are times when I want to fly my electric EG etc but if its not enforced then others will fly ducted fans /hotliners and screaming funjets and before long slopes will be lost to complaints. Why would the NT put up with  that!.

 

I have had a few run ins over the years with guys wanting to fly power, some have become heated, but I have found that once they fully understand that their slow flying electric EG may well not cause offence but will open the flood gates then most seem to grasp it and take off the props etc if they wish to fly.

[isoaritfirst]

Maybe the right way forward is to designate any slope which is allowed power, all others by default being No power,

[Phil.Taylor]

The BMFA need to get their act together and protect these valuable sites.

The Power may have been slow and gutless "assisted " gliders in this case -

 

"Assisted" gliders still have nasty sharp spinning knives on the front - I still remember a case many years ago of a .049 (gutless?) glow powered plane causing some very nasty facial injuries - electric would be worse - it keeps going...

 

Phil.

[isoaritfirst]

Gliders without props can also do some damage Phil, 

Props bring with them a level of performance that is out of balance with others and noise and ability to fly "off" the slope ie back in and around the carpark.

 

Why would some bother to walk up a big hill carrying an electric glider?

[Bear]

This all started way back in the summer when a member of R&DMFC started flying his ST Models Blaze in the large flat area 500 yards behind the slope. That and EDFs, electric funfighter models and jet type models are what they have been flying.I offered to E-Mail Manny with the photos but he said it was not relevant. He was critical of what he described as my "attempts to police the site" especially that I dared to take car reg numbers. He further informed me that he had had a letter from a disinterested party complaining about my conduct. This disinterested party was the wife of the ex chairman of R&DMFC! a point Manny informed me was not relevant. I need to get to speak to David Phipps who was so supportive in November.

[Bear]

Right I am sending a letter to NT as a NT member any comments would be appreciated.

I am given to understand that Redruth And District Model Flying Club or members thereof are seeking to obtain permission to fly electric powered models from St Agnes Head in Cornwall. As regular users of St Agnes Head for non powered flight I am writing to register my objections to this proposal.

1. Electric powered model can be noisy. This is especially true of the electric powered jets and Hotliner type models that have been flown by some RDMFC members over the last year. As a member of the NT who often goes to St Agnes just to enjoy the peace and tranquillity there I do not want it disturbed by noisy models.

2. At present the use of St Agnes Head by modellers is naturally restricted by the prevailing wind and its strength. In effect it can only be used when the wind is SW to North. If permission is given for powered flight then the site could be used 365 days a year, with the resultant increase in traffic and damage to the environment.

3. Slope soaring requires by its definition to be carried out over or in front of the slope. In effect this means that 95% of slope soaring happens safely over the sea. Power flying will allow models to fly anywhere at St Agnes.

4. At present the glider flyers that fly at St Agnes effectively police the site by advising those modellers who turn up with powered models very politely that NT does not allow powered models to be flown. This has not been an issue over the past few years until R&DMFC started to insist they would fly their powered models. Obviously it is very simple to advise of a no power rule but if power assisted gliders are permitted then it will be much more difficult to identify what should and should not be flown at St Agnes.

5. The national agreement between the National Trust and the BMFA precludes the use of powered aircraft on NT sites. RDMFC are at present not complying to these rules and further are abusive to anyone who advises them of said rules. As their members have shown complete disregard for the present rules we do not believe they would stick to any future agreement especially if there is any ambiguity in the rules.

6. Such is the nature of model gliders the wind must be on the correct slope for them to fly. There are 3 slopes at St Agnes. Because of the way in which our RC systems work some of them require that no one else is on the same channel this is easy to police when everyone is on the same slope. By allowing powered models there is a much greater increase in the chance of a out of control glider crashing and causing damage or injury.