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simon_t

Gadgets to aid soaring pilots...

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Gonesoaring2003

That looks like a flux capacitor warp drive thingy jobby whatsit! :D

Nah, it's C3POs stomach preserved in a vacuum! :D

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satinet

I see no problem with any form of aid... But only if everyone has access to the same technology.

In any competition there are rules to level the field a bit. No problem... But we can't stop progress and new technologies.. As technology fees cheaper... It will find its way in to general use.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2

I don't think that's true if it changes the nature of the competition. F3j in theory is about thermal soaring - finding lift, exploiting lift, landing accurately. Varios have been round for many years and I don't think you could seriously argue that varios are a good thing in f3j. Nor have are they allowed AFAIK.

I think Neil's earlier point about changing the nature of the competition is wholly valid. Lift finding devices are far less relevant to say f3f, but combating the turbulence of the slope lips is something aids could make a big difference to.

On the other hand you have something like triangle racing, where GPS devices are central to the whole competition it's obviously a completely different thing. If everyone wants to use every type of telemetry or other aid, you will end up with different competition classes that suit the technology.

Do what you like when flying for fun or training.

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Austin

Devices that indicate better air, lift or anything like that will, imho will always be banned. But electronics that help a pilot fly the model or increase stability will creep into competitions. Its the nature of development and in other sports, for example Formula 1 they are doing it all the time, pushing the rules to limits and if there is no rule they use it until there is one.

In model flying there is no money at stake but the intensity to win is still there and I am afraid whether it's frowned upon or not some people will use anything to win. So its important for the FAI to keep on top of the rules.

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isoaritfirst

Technology says that if you want to stay up longer than everyone else in a F3j comp then fit a motor.

Its all about having fun at the end of the day, technologies should be persued its part of what we do in looking for better wing sections better construction methods etc etc, but as soon as they start to spoil the concept of the competition then they should be excluded from that comp or categorized appropriately. The problems always come during these growth periods when one competitor finds a secret way to gain an advantage and doesn't disclose it.

If pilots were using Gyros in Rugen then that inside the current rules so you could say "fair enough" but it would be nice to know, so that fair assessments can be made and if, or when rules become required for the safegaurd of the sport we can have a sensible discussion from a knowledgeable base, rather than simply fearing new technologies.

Perhaps the entry form should ask the questions ?

And pilots should (not necessarily share their technology) but at least state its presence.

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Mr Ed

You cannot buy sucess in f3x competion or ds.

You're right. That was far too harsh for F3F. In DS we've seen few situations when visiting Europeans go up a Californian hill have a go on the sticks of a Thundertaker or such and come back with a PB 100mph above their previous best. Days when a draw people flying the same plane all go up the lists.

In F3F I suspect that the same guys will always do well but I'm sure that in steadier winds the right plane will usually have an advantage. When it gets wild like at the recent worlds or the events in Taiwan in mega conditions in certain the pilot factor will massively override the plane choice.

I do remember a Knewt quote from an review a hike back about the Skorp. He said people bought one and immediately went up the pecking order. They flew something else and went back down.

Anyway if it's supposed to be pilot skill alone then go one design. It'll never happen but it would stop debates like who is the better driver - Alonso or Vettel?

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isoaritfirst

But pilot skill isn't just about being able to twiddle the sticks in F3f, it is also about he right model choice the right ballast choice, the right flight line, The right model settings. The right time to launch.

Those choices are all part of the fun as are technology choices - it just needs to regulated to some extent to ensure the sport remains fun.

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Rooster-X

I find with F3F its finding the correct mix of factors that improve ones results, personally I have changed my prime plane, turning style, setup and ballast philosphy to go from being at the back of the field to somewhere in the middle. However my thumbs have improved as well so I am better at anticipating the turn, not overpulling the elevator and finding the sweet spot of lift band of the hill. Where a Gyro would help me is being able to land more successfully in rotor and possibly using less ballast although that is just my guess, looking forward to Pierre's findings when he tests his Eagletree gyro.

I will hopefully get telemetry in the future as well, but it appears that this will be banned from F3F so I guess it will just be a training aid and will have to be disconnected and removed for racing but a small inconveniance really.

The future is bright!

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Mr Ed

Certainly a fascinating subject. I may try a gyro in the Luna at some point just for fun. Anyway back to the bunker for a bit.

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thermaldoctor

Devices that indicate better air, lift or anything like that will, imho will always be banned. But electronics that help a pilot fly the model or increase stability will creep into competitions. Its the nature of development and in other sports, for example Formula 1 they are doing it all the time, pushing the rules to limits and if there is no rule they use it until there is one.

In model flying there is no money at stake but the intensity to win is still there and I am afraid whether it's frowned upon or not some people will use anything to win. So its important for the FAI to keep on top of the rules.

I don't think that's true if it changes the nature of the competition. F3j in theory is about thermal soaring - finding lift, exploiting lift, landing accurately. Varios have been round for many years and I don't think you could seriously argue that varios are a good thing in f3j. Nor have are they allowed AFAIK.

I think Neil's earlier point about changing the nature of the competition is wholly valid. Lift finding devices are far less relevant to say f3f, but combating the turbulence of the slope lips is something aids could make a big difference to.

On the other hand you have something like triangle racing, where GPS devices are central to the whole competition it's obviously a completely different thing. If everyone wants to use every type of telemetry or other aid, you will end up with different competition classes that suit the technology.

Do what you like when flying for fun or training.

Yes I agree. As I mentioned before I believe telemetry to indicate lift should always be banned. Telemetry of any kind that can influence pilot behaviour for a more positive competition outcome than would otherwise be should be banned. It is a man against man competition after all and the planes we fly are just the tools of the trade.

But gyros are an interesting case. Yes they can influence the behaviour and response of the plane for a positive outcome but so too does the software of a modern transmitter. For example I'm rubbish with the rudder stick but I still won the British F3j Championship and did okay in the Worlds because I can use coupled rudder to help me out and compensate for my deficiencies. Likewise most glider pilots wouldn't land very well if they had to manually hold down elevator stick in to compensate for CROW braking - the transmitter does it for you so you land in a fairly neutral state of pitch which makes things very easy.

So that's why I suddenly find gyros interesting. BUT one has to ask do they simply compliment the functions of a modern computer transmitter or go against the spirit of competition? :unsure:

Heli boys use them without a quibble and they have more to gain (no pun intended) than we do. In F3j for example set a plane up full of gyros and then fly into the wrong part of the sky and you will lose. Fly a plane without gyros into the right part of the sky and you will win. The choice to fly towards the right part of the sky is based on a holistic reaction to a series of meteorological events shortly before you are called to fly and only this can come from the pilot. Gyros cannot effect this only compliment it but vario/altitude telemetry can compensate for pilot deficiency in this area.

It is this difference that needs to be maintained and what a soaring competition is all about in my opinion. So performance enhancing telemetry should be banned but gyros remain.......interesting ;)

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Woodstock

This isn't my area of expertise at all, but when I look at crazy conditions like Rugen and Taiwan, it's seems to me that anything that smooths out the flight path in f3f to allow you to fly nearer the compression zone when it's really bumpy will improve times. But, I reckon (as has been said already) it's like all technology, we can't hold back the tide forever...

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Bobbyr

A gyro moves the aircraft , telemetry does not ,

Gyro will work faster than your eyes , so your correct , it will iron out all the twitches and bumps in the compression ,

Tell ya what , i will set up a gyro aircraft with a simple figure of 8 programme , chuck it off and let technology fly it !!!

We need to keep up with tech so wheres the harm in programing a HAL system to fly the Aircraft ?

its not sport then to me ,

and as far as F1 goes ,

dont make me laugh , you cannot have active suspension even though its very similar to a gyro, stiffening and softening the cars balance ,

Banned because its to easy to Drive fast

I think there is nothing wrong with a Gyro in a sport plane for fun , but FAI competitions, should in my opinion be without the assist of an Artificial Aid

Bob

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Austin

I think there is nothing wrong with a Gyro in a sport plane for fun , but FAI competitions, should in my opinion be without the assist of an Artificial Aid

Bob

So lets do away with crow braking mix in our transmitter and try to land ourselves then :blink:

What do you class as an artificial aid?

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mark_r

Pierre, I don't know what it is, but I want one! Imagine letting everyone see you fitting that on the slope!

Back on the gyros topic - I have no doubt that gyros will offer a significant advantage if used carefully (they could also provoke some fast landings if not...). Without doubt they will ease the load on the pilot in some circumstances, and significantly improve model performance in others. I'm with Bobby on this one as gyros are a small step towards an autopilot.

It is interesting though that a number of fliers try them, find they work as expected, then discard them partly because the model becomes a little less exciting to fly...

Having said that, I also have the eagle tree guardian module which I'll start experimenting with....

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Bobbyr

So lets do away with crow braking mix in our transmitter and try to land ourselves then :blink:

What do you class as an artificial aid?

I do on many occasions land without crow , :drool: Dont you ?

But i will tell you what i class as Artificial Aid Austin.

compensating control surfaces faster than you could think of doing it yourself ,

self correcting and moving surfaces without the pilot touching the sticks.

You are no longer flying an Aircraft ,

you are just helping too fly it ,

Just my opinion , and i am enjoying the total cross reference of peoples opinions,

I see nothing wrong with having Information like Temp , windspeed, ground speed and humidity ,

and others think that Gyros are not the work of the devil :lol: ,

Bob

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isoaritfirst

The more I think about it the more I like the idea of pilots having to disclose any aids they have fitted to their models.

Disclosure would allow all to see what is happening and any fun that is lost by continually being beaten by someone using an artificial aid could be made up for with some good old barracking.

Proper English sport,

and unlike many other sports its better after a drink or two.

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simon_t

This isn't my area of expertise at all, but when I look at crazy conditions like Rugen and Taiwan, it's seems to me that anything that smooths out the flight path in f3f to allow you to fly nearer the compression zone when it's really bumpy will improve times. But, I reckon (as has been said already) it's like all technology, we can't hold back the tide forever...

It is of course possible that in real conditions like Rügen, although a gyro would allow you to fly a more accurate course, the continuous (automatic) control surface movements correcting for turbulence could actually significantly increase the drag, and negate any benefit.

Simon

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Rooster-X

Doesn't seem to slow the DS guys down :)

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isoaritfirst

I know when I fly best its when I allow the model to react to the turbulence rather than continually trying to react to it, so you may be right Simon.

On the other hand, a Gyro would be much faster and may well correct the turbulence with very small but fast responses inducing very little drag and should not overcorrect, unlike me, so perhaps they would work well...not only making it more comfortable to fly within the compression, but also perhaps on appropriate slopes just inboard of a lip allowing ds turns back out to the slope, something I have done regularly with a foamie but the potential to roll a larger span mouldie over stops me from getting in and down low enough with them very often.

The inboard turn would be ideally suited to EM style, and if a GYro made it a comfortable manoever then there may well be times when it could be hard to beat.

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Bobbyr

It is of course possible that in real conditions like Rügen, although a gyro would allow you to fly a more accurate course, the continuous (automatic) control surface movements correcting for turbulence could actually significantly increase the drag, and negate any benefit.

Simon

Good point Simon, but are you thinking the control of the plane as a pilot from the floor ?,

a gyro makes tiny adjustment as the wing or tail moves to counter the adverse movement , if it was without a Gyro , from ground it would move far more violently before a pilot would correct it , thus using bigger control surface movements .and more drag.

What im trying to say is the reaction time from the gyro is far superior to our eyesight from the floor . i am possitive in most cases the gyro would keep the craft smoother than a human alone , therefore probably faster IMHO,

Bob

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Rob Thomson

In my experience with a little 3 axis MEMS gyro in a wild thing... This is exactly what is does.

Less bounce on then lion of the slope, and generally a more solid feel to the model.

I think that people have this idea that an aircraft gyro flies the model for you. My experience tells me that they work differently to the heli gyros. The heading lock seems to recalculate ever second or so... So turbulence will still be felt. Just less of an issue.

A heli gyro is different. The tend to try hold you I definitely on the course you where last on. Not sure how well that would work in a glider!

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2

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