Jump to content

F3J 2015


Peter
 Share

Recommended Posts

Hi Chris,

 

 Did you go to Cranwell? What was your impression on the field?

 

There is oodles of enthusiasm for soaring in the UK F3J scene, it is a shame the discussions revolve around the rules and team selection. I would like to see more technique 'secrets' being given away! I've discussed privately with one of the top flyers about the possibility of a 'boot camp' training day that could also be used as an introduction for new flyers.

 

It is unfortunate that an article based on one person's opinion (albeit very respected) has gained prominence.

 

My thoughts on the current rules are that there is only a problem for the very top flyers at World and European contest level where they are consistently flying out the slots from super quick winch launches and scoring 100 points for landing. This doesn't happen at  UK events. 

 

Whatever team selection method is used it is bound to not suit some people.

 

The intent of this thread is just to work out the details for next year's events.

 

There is the 100S class which is a good introduction and still very popular, don't know if you are aware of it?

 

Cheers

 

Gary 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What would be the upshot of a "return to barcs open"?  The same models that you can fly now, you're still allowed to use winches, but now you get maximum landing points for landing within 2.5m.  :rolleyes:

 

The rules of f3j are fine for the UK. At the comps I've been to you could take a full tow, fly out all your slots and get say 95+ on the landings you would probably make the fly offs.  I think it's an absolute fantasy that if you somehow return the rules to rudder/elevator, dope and tissue, that you would suddenly get a spike in participation.

 

The basic problem f3j has is the same that other contest classes have and isn't down to the rules - that problem is lack of younger people coming in to the sport.   You know what it isn't even just glider flying. I have recently got back in to fishing and they are banging on about exactly the same thing - lack of new people in fishing and match fishing - great old days with 200 people in match on the great ouse etc, fish and chips and change from 2s 6d.  Just take out the words rod and insert glider and you basically have the same discussion if you swap river to flying field.   

 

The problem ain't the rules!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In reply to mr beadle

Beats me how someone who hasn,t competed in any F3J competitions in the last 15 years thinks they have any knowledge or the insight to criticise f3j ,I find his comments insulting to all f3j competitors / organisers current and passed .

I think mr beadles anger stems from an unfortunate incident in Portugal.

All sports evolve ,and that's all that's happening with f3j .Its not only model design and current construction technics,but also the RC gear small light reliable servos ,2.4 ghz,launch equipment ,better lines ,quality winches .

You either embrace the changes or move on.

Sadly how the sport has evolved has brought additional costs ,coupled with fuel costs and 24/7 living expenses it's no surprise to see a lack off young /new people coming into the sport.

I would say to Chris or any new person thinking off F3J ,look for a second hand model at reasonable cost ,enter a competion ,tell the CD if you don't have a winch ,you won't need one at first ,all f3j competitors in the UK will help and encourage you to enjoy the sport.

I have never met Mr Win Atallcosts ,there's as much fun to be had in today's competion scene as there has always been

On Topic

I would still prefer to see a series off f3j events run at Edgecott with equipment stored there ,

I will happily cd an event there if I do not have to worry about logistics

If any off you would also be interested in CD Ing an event there let me know through this forum thread ,and I will see if I can take it forward .

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I would certainly try my best to fly in events held at Edgecott. I will be flying all the f3b events next season, but it's close to where I live so I'm "up for it" as the saying goes.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Graham

 

I was hoping that one of the regular F3J competitors such as yourself would get involved in this string, not too happy, obviously, as to your comments on my suitability to comment as, the example I gave was not my experience of F3J but "Uncle"Sidney Lenssen's

As you rightly say, I have not competed in F3J in the last 15 years, and this was by personal choice, but have attended several comps at Marsh Gibbon and elsewhere where I watched the gradual reduction in the number of competitors over time that was the concern I was commenting on

The problem didn't start this year, it started many years ago, but is only being commented on now as numbers of entrants become small enough to actually influence whether a competition can be held at all

 

I take no pleasure in seeing the small entries F3J is attracting nowadays, it's NOT an "I told you so" moment,  and was trying. obviously in vain, to point out that flyers were voting with their feet and swapping fromF3J to ELG (for example)

 

BTW Chris, it would be my suggestion that you DO buy an F3J model, they're great for sport flying, but, with it, perhaps get an "electric" fus - if you're having trouble getting one I'd be happy to sell you my Experience Pro, including a fully fitted out electric fuselage, for as very reasonable price - I'm not using it much........

 

Oh and Grahame, to put the record straight, my experiences in Portugal weren't the reason for leaving F3J there were a lot more contributory factors than one isolated incident

 

Good to hear from you though

See you at the AGM?

Regards

 

Pete

BARCS1702 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Is ELG attracting new pilots in to rc glider flying?

I ask because if it is only getting people who already fly, then it isn't really solving the inherent problem of lack of new comers. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Tom

Sorry no, in the case of the Bartletts League the majority of each comp is made up of ex Open and F3J flyers

I'm sure you'll recognise most of the names on the entry list

It's not addressing the lack of newcomers into the hobby but that appears to be caused by a very different set of reasons

The ISA, for example, have had no new members under the age of 21, for nearly two years and, when we ask newcomers to the hill they cite the reabt availability of RTF models and cheap radio gear currently

I asked a recent "newbie" if he had been to a model shop, joined a club or the BMFA or consulted a slope flyer before purchasing his kit - no to each one....mind you, that really is off topic so I'll save that for the next "gabfest" we oldies enjoy on the hill

Regards

 

Pete

BARCS1702

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Administrators

Actually if you go back over the years F3J was never massively attended. When BARCS Open was the main thermal soaring event getting 40-60 at local events F3J only attracted 15-25 competitors maybe less. I remember being at the Nats one year asking why no one does F3J and the answer was "its only to get into the UK team" and were not worried about that.

 

Over the years Open declined and the only Open type contests running were F3J so people that didn't want electric migrated to F3J and kept it going. Start of the seasons saw good entry and normally by the end around 20 attended. Its been that way for years. However with people aging even more the numbers start to decline because they prefer an easier day physically. It has nothing to do with F3J becoming expensive because if you want to be competitive in F5J or those type of contests you need a couple of planes that are based on F3J planes and then you need the motor/battery and so on. I fail to see how its any cheaper. Of course you don't have to spend lots of money, you can fly an old Eliminator converted but you can also do that in F3J if you're just flying for fun. 

 

The solution is not to try and bring back the past. Its gone.... but to try and stop it dying completely and probably the only way to keep some interest in it is to have some sort of league like we had for years. Something that you can look forward to participating in. I don't care how big Bartletts league gets you cant tell me that if there was only one contest there a year like a team trial it would have the status it currently enjoys. The reason its successful is because its a proper league. Most of the time its competitions centre in one location and no one moans, Funny eh?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Tom

Sorry no, in the case of the Bartletts League the majority of each comp is made up of ex Open and F3J flyers

I'm sure you'll recognise most of the names on the entry list

It's not addressing the lack of newcomers into the hobby but that appears to be caused by a very different set of reasons

The ISA, for example, have had no new members under the age of 21, for nearly two years and, when we ask newcomers to the hill they cite the reabt availability of RTF models and cheap radio gear currently

I asked a recent "newbie" if he had been to a model shop, joined a club or the BMFA or consulted a slope flyer before purchasing his kit - no to each one....mind you, that really is off topic so I'll save that for the next "gabfest" we oldies enjoy on the hill

Regards

 

Pete

BARCS1702

 

That's my point though Pete. It's not about being ageist, but in 10-20 years a lot of the guys flying ELG probably won't be flying at all, so, as I say, it doesn't really address the root cause of the problem, which is that there isn't a replacement of pilots as they leave the sport.

 

I'm not decrying ELG at all, but I don't think it is quite the panacea that it is made out to be sometimes.

 

Austin is dead right - from what I have seen of ELG the  majority fly f3j type models that cost even more - same cost as an f3j model, PLUS the cost of the drive train which can run in to the hundreds. 

 

Where I disagree with the Uncle Syndey article is that issues aren't specific to f3j.  Attacking f3j at the rules level is just nibbling at the edges.  In reality there is probably nothing that can actually be done to get more people soaring, but we can all enjoying flying and not going on about how rubbish it is.

 

Blimey I'm sat here in the office not wanting to do a bank reconciliation on sage and looking at the window and cracking soaring conditions. I'd definitely rather be flying f3j/f3b/f3f!   A good comp gives me a real buzz, even if I don't do well.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

part off the soaring evolution will be F5J ,

I realised last year that if I wished to continue competitive thermal soaring in the UK I would have to participate in F5J and have invested heavily in equipment .

The UK organisers off the f5j league are already way out in front off F3J .For 2015 season. they have scheduled a dozen competitions within 1-2hours drive from my base.

BUT I would much prefer to be flying F3j

MY reason for banging on about using Edgecott for a base .is simple, its central to a reasonable number off F3j / soaring enthusiasts who like myself would like to keep having fun competing with our f3j equipment in an organised league (whether that includes team selection is a matter for the sftc)

Its a formula that works for the BARTCHEATS league .The guys that fly there are all reasonably local.

And I think its a formula that could work for us .

There is nothing stopping anyone else in the UK from doing the same for their own area /region

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There is no control off launch height ,with the correct power train you can zoom well above 200mtr .

Entered once decided its not for me ,seemed to have little to do with thermal soaring ,

But each to there own ,and you have to congratulate Brian on his efforts

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hello again,
 
Firstly, I'd like to apologise. 
 
I feel that really I shouldn't have added my voice to this thread in particular as my experience of F3j is so limited (er, Nil) and the conversation being had (about the 2015 arrangements) was nothing to do with me. Perhaps I'd had too much wine on Sunday or perhaps I am mutating into a sort of hobby-based internet troll. I will seek help, I promise. 
 
In response to my comments however, you all spoke very kindly and inclusively, when you could have told me to sod off, so thank you and again, sorry.
 
Thanks to all who have kindly offered support and help to me in getting involved in F3j. Though my earlier thoughts indicated a new reluctance to invest (for reasons discussed by us all at length) I am still excited about taking part in this sport (as a newcomer and a sub 50 year-old!) at some near point in time. I for one, am attracted by the cutting edge nature of the models and technology - though I do stand by the assertion that the cost can appear daunting - second hand is clearly the way in.
 
Gary, I did indeed come up to Cranwell, on the invitation of Ian Duff, with whom I fly from time to time at Whitesheet and WSA. He and all of the pilots I met were very friendly and encouraging and it seemed to me that the Nats was an excellent and enjoyable event, with the healthiest of desire to win, but not at the expense of the atmosphere.
 
I guess my earlier message, though having no place here in this thread perhaps, was just me saying to BARCS members - "Please don't ditch it before I can get there! - There are newcomers coming!" Perhaps the BARCS front page should have the terminal decline article put into the archives - it is doing you all no favours.
 
On the matter of attracting newcomers, I can concur with Satinet on the matter of attracting people - I am a keen chess player and getting new young players into the clubs is massively challenging. I often comment that the newbies might be put off by all the serious matches that get played each evening - meeting their fresh faces with a silent room of grouchy looking old guys - it's a hard sell. F3j has it made by comparison!
 
Wixy et al - I will certainly be looking for an F3j model in the next six months or so, once my flying standard is up on the Willow I'm sloping presently and the Erwin XL (the new medium layup) that's coming for Christmas (oh yes!). 
 
I really hope I can join you guys some time in 2015 for a comp.
 
best wishes,
Chris
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I would remind you again that I started this topic as F3J 2015 and not a general discussion about

population demographics, rules or methods of launching so let's stay on topic.

As F3J is a competition class this discussion is obviously meant to be about how to organise

competitions. There are many people who do not like participating in competitions. This is their choiceand should be respected but their negative comments should not be expressed here. There are many who doenjoy attending competitions and but unless a method of organising them is found they will soon there

will not be any to go to so we need to hear positive suggestions about how this can be achieved.

There is clearly a demand for competitions and it is not the rules which are the impediment. Uncle

Sydney's comments were aimed at the problems caused by trying to separate the top pilots in the world

by minute amounts but this is not a problem that we have here in the UK and the rules at domestic levelwork well. Regional leagues of various soaring disciplines exist not only for F5J and E soaring but

Brian Austin organises a successfully league in his part of the country to his own rules, Alan Morton

runs a Winter series run to Open rules with a good attendance at Twywell and 100" would virtually have

ceased to exist without the well attended Mike Lucas series of competitions. All of these are run to

different rules.

What all these series have in common is that they are supported by a regular core of pilots mainly fromtheir local areas. As Wixy has said a similar series of F3J competitions could be run at Marsh Gibbon

which would attract a steady entry of 20 or so pilots mainly within a 2 hour drive of the Oxford area.

But is this what is wanted? What about F3J in the rest of the country? Unless people are prepared to

run competitions in the south or west or the north to F3J rules(or to Open rules which are much the

same)in these areas local pilots will not have the chance to participate and the competition scene willsimply fade away just like 100" has in much of the country.

F3J is also an international FAI class with World and European Championships and series of local

competitions would hardly be a fair basis for selection a UK representative team. One off team trials

are also widely condemned as unfair so what is the solution?

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Graham,

 

You should not give up on the Bartletts league. I too have been very disappointed by the apparent lack of height restriction on some models that competed this year.

 

However, it is the intent of the organisers to prevent the offenders from ruining the format, and some have already been adjusting their switches to keep the launch apogee within reason, as spot checks will be made on the field next year. Some of the devices are well known for their lack of control, so at the MLG comp in Little Bentley last weekend, the CD announced that those with CAM switches would be required to set them for 150m/30sec, whereas other switches could be set for 175m/30sec. Very sensible call.

 

At the lunch break of that comp, I was able to download my launch traces and because I was constantly hitting 185-188m, cut the power a second or two early in the after-lunch rounds, to keep it fair for all. 

 

As for the introduction of newbies to the competition scene, I don't think the launch method affects this. There are as many 'newbies' in electric flight in Essex as there are in discus launch gliding in Essex. I cannot comment on how the number compares to the influx of new participants into line launched gliding (F classes or any other), in the Essex area because there are no winch only competitions organised here, probably due to the lack of suitable fields here over the last fifteen years.

 

However, I believe that there are plans for an F3B taster day in the south east in 2015 (albeit in Kent), which has to be a positive thing for attracting fresh blood into F3J too.

 

For those that don't know me, I am an "on-the-cheap" participant in Bartletts, Kent Interclub, F5J-lite and Multi Launch Gliding comps having participated in these with ageing / second-hand / repaired, electric, discus and winch launch models, (by the way, thanks to all those that have sold me their used equipment). None of my Open class models have cost more than £300, I use a secondhand Tx (£150) and a cheap second-hand winch, and use a great Fluhs winch, in return for fetching and carrying services before, after and during the comps. 

 

If the Kent Interclub series of competitions were more widely publicised, these may attract fresh blood into the line launch scene in the South East, and I have been approached by people asking about cheap moulded models (at Multi-Launch comps), suitable for entry into thermal soaring off a winch. 

 

If we all continually talk down the future of our beloved sport it will have the undesired effect.

Slope soaring still attracts youngsters and gives them the necessary co-ordination, to basically handle a full-house glider.  

Think positive. 

Encourage slope soarers to spectate.

Encourage those that spectate to have a go on your sticks. 

 

Apologies to the originator of the thread, if this is off topic.

 

Jef

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Bob Dickenson

Morning all,

  At last year's Ashurst competition(F5J), it was suggested that a weekend at the Wetlands flying F5J one day & f3j on the other would attract support from the more southerly based soarers.Thinking that this sounds like a good idea,in co operation with Mike Proctor, we have come up with the weekend of May 2nd or August 8th. Whether the F3J is simply part of the domestic league or part of a team trial system is immaterial to me. I would simply rope in Fozzy Brian & any other help I might need for us to run it.

   An earlier part of this thread seemed to indicate that Interglide was in danger of not being run this year. If this is indeed the case, then we would have a shot at that as well.

  Other then that, I have a huge selection of random thoughts which take up more space & time then is available & would probably send everybody to sleep.

  Cheers, Bob

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Bob

A 2 day f5j & f3j sounds good to me and I would travel to Wetlands for this type off event .

Not sure about your choice off date though

May 2 nd is early bank holiday date when some off us travel to Bulgaria Eurotour event & Aug 8th I think we will be traveling home from the European Champs ,

I will try to confirm whether I,m correct ASAP and let you know .

Graham

Jeff interesting reply ,

Field at Bentley looks good and I look forward to flying f5j there next year

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Peter, Jef, Graham et al

 

"If we all continually talk down the future of our beloved sport it will have the undesired effect"

 

I'm sorry Jef, it is my understanding that these comments made in this string are accessible only to BARCS members.

Personally, I believe the BARCS forum should be the place where these comcerns are aired initially, to see if others have the same concerns and with that in mind - it should be a discussion available to all BARCS members

 

However, I would like to apologise for my posts being off topic in this thread and to say that I am glad to see members already making pledges of support to continue with F3J in 2015

I further wish to apologise to Peter if airing my own personal views helped to sidetrack your initial posting and waste people's time but I thought that this forum was where they could and should be aired and apologise for my obvious mistake

 

However, can I ask if all the members who have posted on this string will be at the AGM?

 

I'll be there so I can be made aware of your views in person and would appreciate the chance to put my case across to show that it was not my intention to promote negativity just to see what other people's views are in relation to classes such as F3J going forward into 2015

Regards

 

Pete

BARCS1702

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Administrators

 

I'm sorry Jef, it is my understanding that these comments made in this string are accessible only to BARCS members.

Personally, I believe the BARCS forum should be the place where these comcerns are aired initially, to see if others have the same concerns and with that in mind - it should be a discussion available to all BARCS members

 

 

Pete these forums are all open to the public. Only the BARCS Matters section is closed to non BARCS members.

 

Nothing wrong with discussing F3J in public however this topic is about organising next years BMFA qualification process/events.

 

So lets finish this discussion about matters that don't really help with the topic. There is a perfectly good discussion about F3J on the main website should anyone want to comment. Or start a new topic.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.