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Martin_N

F3F League Contests

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Martin_N

Hi All,

With recent bad luck with the weather we have been looking at potentially adding an additional date to the calendar, we do still have the second reserve date and SlopeGlide to add which we will provide information on very soon.

So far apart from the North Of England World Cup and Euro Tour we are still to hold a one day contest in the North.  Therefore we will use the 6th September as an additional date to the league. This date will be added to the BMFA Website and GBSRA website..

Mark Redsell has put a considerable amount of work into finding more slopes in the North and after discussing with Mark we can now use these slopes for a contest, which will make it even more interesting.

Massive thanks to Mark for all his hard work.

Thanks

Martin

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isoaritfirst

New slopes -- Yahooo  

Great work Mark!

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Peter G

Great idea, looking forward to it!

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tonydoc

Changing the rules to find a fair or acceptable result is wrong in my opinion.

Do you keep adding races until you happy with the result?

At the beginning of the year you know what is needed and  is clearly set out,now nothing is certain.

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Martin_N

Changing the rules to find a fair or acceptable result is wrong in my opinion.

Do you keep adding races until you happy with the result?

At the beginning of the year you know what is needed and  is clearly set out,now nothing is certain.

Hi Tony,

If the rules have been infringed please accept my apologies, could you direct me to the rule I haven't looked and I will request the thread to be removed.  Again accept my appologies it wasn't my intention to upset anyone but this appears to clearly be the case.

i do what I can to get pilots out flying.

thanks

martin

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Peter G

I'm certain it's not about manipulating results Tony. Why would Martin be volunteering to travel to unfamiliar slopes if that were the case?

None of the three 'north' events have run this year due to the weather. These are exceptional(ly bad) circumstances and there are no rules (as far as we are aware) to prevent an additional comp with 6 weeks notice.

I note that you havn't had you name down for any of the three 'north' events so you won't be missing out anyway?

If the Whitesheet comp didn't re-locate to Wales on a regular basis, we wouldn't have had any one day league comps this year, should we be stopping that too as it creates uncertainty?

At the end of the day, the league gets less fair the less rounds that are flown. So more rounds = more fairness?

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oipigface

 

Changing the rules to find a fair or acceptable result is wrong in my opinion.

Do you keep adding races until you happy with the result?

At the beginning of the year you know what is needed and  is clearly set out,now nothing is certain.

 

There's no rule that I am aware of that refers to the scheduling of league competitions. While it would be nice to have the season's schedule set out at the start of the season, and to be able to follow it without change, we do not have the luxury of predictable weather, or reliable forecasts. In dealing with this uncertainty, flexibility is important, and we already have a degree of flexible scheduling in the form of reserve dates. In my view, even more flexibility would lead to a more successful league, and I would be thinking not only of abandoning rigid adherence to fixed sites (look how well the C of C's worked out this year!), but also rigid adherence to fixed dates (e.g. specifying Saturday OR Sunday of a single weekend, or one of two consecutive Sundays).

Additional flexibility, however it is introduced, will bring its own problems, but anything that helps achieve the aim of running a specified number of events during the summer season, is surely worth trying. 

Well done, Martin and Mark, for some quick and creative thinking, in the face of rather difficult circumstances.

 

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drewetm

I think everyone within F3F is massively indebted to Martin N and the others that tirelessly work to ensure that we get to compete at the sport we all love.

Personally I don't agree that adding an extra date / competition into a calendar, that by some F3F'ers rightly or wrongly assume to be fixed dates is the right way to do things. 

I wonder if there are better ways to overcome what is the weather conundrum , for example leaving the weather call to 10am on a Saturday morning which this weekend would have seen the Wales league event take place. Maybe additional reserve dates to remove the risk of new dates / comps being added?

I am also guilty of not entering any of the scottish comps, so as Peter says I really have nothing to complain about, however this same situation may arise in the south of England next year and I just wondered whether or not there maybe a more robust method of ensuring we all get the maximum amount of flying in without the ambiguity, which ultimately is what we all want.

 

Martin

Currently now awaiting a torrent of abuse

 

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simon_t

Although this additional opportunity of a contest was a surprise to me, it seems sensible to try and provide it given the dropped contests so far this year.  Relevant paragraphs in the BMFA silent flight rules are shown below - as far as I can see this falls within the the rules on all counts, and also fulfils the overall aim which is to provide a league for pilots who want to fly F3F.  I don't think in 25 years I have seen any pilots complaining about additional opportunities to fly F3F...

"7.9.3.1.5 League Contest Schedule
(a) A Competitors final League Score will be determined by, adding up the
'normalised' scores achieved in completed League and National Contests.
(b) A minimum of three and a maximum of four League Contests to be scheduled in
both the North and the South. In addition, a minimum of one and a maximum of
four National Contests to be scheduled at the start of the year, all as described in
7.9.3.1.2.
(c) Up to two Reserve dates should be set for both North and South Competitions.
Where two dates are specified, then one date to be at approximately the mid point
of the season. In addition, provision for a reserve date for the BMFA F3F Nationals
must be included in the calendar.
BMFA Silent Flight Rules 20 Effective January 2014
(d) All League Contest Schedules to be carried out by the League Co-ordinator(s) as
referred to in 7.9.3.1.2 , to ensure that
where possible, all venues and dates are
declared before the start of the season.
For any contest added later, then at least
six weeks notice must be given
by the League Co-ordinator stating, the venue and
date of the contest for it to be valid for inclusion in the final league results."

Simon

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Martin_N

I think everyone within F3F is massively indebted to Martin N and the others that tirelessly work to ensure that we get to compete at the sport we all love.

Personally I don't agree that adding an extra date / competition into a calendar, that by some F3F'ers rightly or wrongly assume to be fixed dates is the right way to do things. 

I wonder if there are better ways to overcome what is the weather conundrum , for example leaving the weather call to 10am on a Saturday morning which this weekend would have seen the Wales league event take place. Maybe additional reserve dates to remove the risk of new dates / comps being added?

I am also guilty of not entering any of the scottish comps, so as Peter says I really have nothing to complain about, however this same situation may arise in the south of England next year and I just wondered whether or not there maybe a more robust method of ensuring we all get the maximum amount of flying in without the ambiguity, which ultimately is what we all want.

 

Martin

Currently now awaiting a torrent of abuse

 

no arguments from me Martin, all fare comments as are all the others :)

we have an AGM coming soon and will be asking for input.

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isoaritfirst

Firstly thanks to MArtin and Mark for making the opportunity for this extra comp.

As to wether we should run an extra date after a fixed list has been published, thats a bit trickier.

I come from a standpoint of always asking the finish time of a comp,  a checkered flag is needed for any race.

But it could be argued that an additional race is just that an additional race, not a few more laps added on awaiting a winner. Conversley if a pilot has commited to the league at the start of the year and set his stall out accordingly but then finds that his winning position is undermined by the addition of an extra comp that perhaps he can't attend because he has planned hi year differently, would he feel cheated

 

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oipigface

Thanks to Simon for bringing his intimate knowledge of the rules to bear. It is longer than six weeks between now and the 9th September. We have lost more dates this year than we have been able to fly. It seems to me that the extra comp is both justified, and permitted by the rules.

I remain convinced though that more flexibility should be built into the initial scheduling in order to reduce the chances of similar emergencies in the future.

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Peter G
 

I have had the same thought on the weather call, it's often that changeable in the summer that a Saturday call may make a difference.

But Yorkshire isn't in Scotland yet, only one comp lost in Scotland but two in the North of England.

I think Mike's point would be a very valid point towards the end of the season if we had flown a number of comps and another was added and I understand that not being able to make an added date would be frustrating. However, with two results on the board and half a season to go its a very different scenario. Maybe there should be a cut off point at which no further comps could be added?

From another point of view, it would be very frustrating for people from very North UK having to give up on a season half way through as all their planned comps have been lost to weather. It would be exactly the same in reverse if all the South comps were lost and the league were decided on results from Scotland and Yorkshire.

Edited by Peter G
mistake with quote

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Rocket Ronnie

Well I don't know what all the fuss is about.

i think we should have a comp every other week,  as long as it's at the HOH.

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paul garnett

I just wish I could attend a comp, I need the extra dates!! I can see how someone could potentially manipulate results by adding a comp, but would that not stick out like a sore thumb? Im one that potentially could benefit from extra dates being added due to the time I have to spend away earning a living, so if a comp is cancelled and a new date added..woohoo maybe I can attend the next one, yes selfish I know.. However I would be reluctant to attend just one comp when my score would potentially disrupt a tight league score! Yes I can guide a plane around ok!! 

I chose the comps I want to attend, and do my best in them!  As they will be my scoring ones, otherwise we should score every comp to get a fair national league, but this would be something that lots of people couldnt attend for one reason or another..

 

Have fun guys, thats what f3f is about, hope to see you on a slope soon..

 

Ps, MarkR should be congratulated on his hard work on finding some of these new slopes and getting permission to fly them, We [ Mark R] and i have flown some superb slopes and cliffs that really will make you work both your plane and your grey matter into getting the best you can out of your task, some truly spectacular speeds are possible if you care to learn the techniques!! 

 

 

Edited by paul garnett
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Alibabaj

 

Have fun guys, thats what f3f is about

 

 

 

 

I fully agree Paul,

Let's not loose sight of why we do this guys... First and foremost it should be fun, if we do well, that's a bonus.

Graeme.

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isoaritfirst

So heres a thought,

Do leagues add to your fun or do they just add a pressure that reduces it?

Running into the next question - would you prefer more or less league scoreing events?

Answers on a post card - :huh:

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John T

Fun and pressure in different ratios depending on the individual?

Don't forget the practice.....

Like most sports, the practice is what really counts, the comps just prove the practice is hopefully/actually working.

"The more I practice the luckier i get" quote springs to mind.........unless its a thermal day.........

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LS8-18

Hello,

just from a neutral point of view. Some of you are moaning on a really high level ;-)

We have also some kind of league contests. In the last 1 1/2 year we had not a single one! Normally some of the potential organizers are watching weather forecasts. If they are expecting flyable weather they will announce just a few days in advance that there could be a competition at the weekend. Final weather call normally on Friday.

So we are not privileged to know many weeks in advance of a planned competition date. Even now Martin announced possible extra competitions quite early. We have this on a really short term basis...

To conclude -> relax and enjoy the flying and use every possibility of F3F practice. I would be very very happy to have possibilities like that...

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