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Anyone that flies DLGs, HLGs, MiniGliders competitively


Jef Ott
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Can anyone that flies DLGs, HLGs, MiniGliders competitively please PM me IF you would like the BARCS Multi Launch Glider Rules improved from your perspective as a MiniGlider pilot. I seem to have been volunteered for the task of putting a proposal together but in Robin Sleight's words "The BARCS handbook sets out the required format and such a proposal needs three seconders." 

So unless 3 of you fancy flying MLG, if it is more of a level playing field for you, then there is no point in my wasting time on your behalf.
 

Jef

 

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As 37+ other people have viewed this, I reckon that probably means all of the UK DLGers that compete have seen it.

For the name "Multi Launch" to be truly representative, that means at least three launch disciplines have to be catered for with a fair and level playing field. 

Not one PM yet, from any DLGers, so I will probably drop the proposal to make it fairer for DLGers and mini-glider bungee launchers. This is a shame as I felt that it would be a great format for an across the disciplines get together at RadioGlide every year, possibly followed by the AGM and some socialising. 

 

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Jef,

As an F3K flyer, I suspect that I'm not the only one who hasn't commented here because I have never flown an MLG contest so I can't suggest rule improvements regarding mini-glider participation.  The rules seem OK as they are but I do understand your concern for bungee launchers, given that it takes them more time to turn around.

Why haven't I flown MLG?  Well it's not because of the existing rules.  I suppose I'm a bit of a purist - I wouldn't want my meagre efforts at F3K to be diluted by a second event.  We already have a full F3K programme.

For MLG, since I don't launch high, I'd probably be tempted to develop a special model and use my ideas for a 'better bungee'.  (I wouldn't just be fitting a hook to an existing F3K model!).

One way I might be tempted to fly my F3Ks in MLG at the moment is if the AGM falls between F3K and MLG at Radioglide.

Thanks for taking the lead on this.

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OK Mike 

This really is a chicken and egg situation. We have no regular DLGers at MLG, so nobody is willing to second my proposals for an improved format to attract more Minigliders pilots!

Thanks for your help, in clarifying this, I don't need anyone to make suggestions yet, just three DLG Fliers that would be willing in principal, to second a proposal. If we can't get three people that would be willing to be in the frame as seconders, for the right proposal and under no obligation, there's no point in having a proposal. 

As long as your bungee conformed to the rules and to the spirit of them, then nobody could complain. The problem with a bungee is that you have to return the glider to it, a lot harder than it sounds, when you have been used to the freedom of a big rectangular box, as I am sure you remember.

All disciplines are in the same boat, F classes dominate their calendar, nobody (except me) sees MLG as the prime event; the one they look forward to. If it is run properly, there's nothing that can hold a candle to it, in my somewhat lonely opinion.

Members of the BARCS Committee are trying to convince me that there is a future for MLG, and believe that my ideas should encourage greater participation, but rules is rules, and to change them we have to abide by procedures. So to do anything, we must have three seconders, which seems unnecessarily complicated to me on the one hand, and a complete waste of time on the other, as so few events are planned anyway.

Hoping this all makes sense, 

Jef

 

 

 

 

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25 minutes ago, Jef said:

......

Thanks for your help, in clarifying this, I don't need anyone to make suggestions yet, just three DLG Fliers that would be willing in principal, to second a proposal. If we can't get three people that would be willing to be in the frame as seconders, for the right proposal and under no obligation, there's no point in having a proposal.

.....

When you put it that way, I'd be prepared to second a sensible proposal so it could at least be considered.

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I'd be willing to second a sensible proposal too. On the basis that it may encourage more people into competitive flying.

I've not flown a MLG contest, but having just skimmed the rules, whilst I can see some things that may be issues I can't really think how they could be improved. (Except the obvious thing where everyone else trades in their gliders for a DLG and flies an F3K comp ;-) )

2 seconds for each turn-around means you need to be able to tip catch and re-launch to not be penalised for the extra launch in my opinion. Which is maybe right, but again IMO that requires as much if not more skill than landing within 2.5M of a spot bang on a time. So for the rules to be 'even' a DLG has to do 3 'landings' that require more skill than maxing the spot landing. Then to fly bang on 10 mins, you need to work-out how the truncation falls (did I loose 1 second or two?) to total exactly 10 mins, because I think you get penalised if your total is over. I assume everyone flies to the slot timer. For DLG you could allow say 15 seconds total over the 10 min window, and instead the timer stops and starts the watch using the stop-start button on the land-relaunch and then counts the pilot down to 10 min.s based on the timers watch. 15 seconds is enough time for a catch and re-launch, or land next / near to you and re-launch 3 times.

May be covered in the rules, but when I flew an approximation of multi-launch at the club once on a booming day where 10 min.s was pretty easily do-able with one DLG launch, the (electric) competition were not impressed when my second launch consisted of a 5cm flight of my glider onto the very centre of the jumper serving as my landing spot.

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Thanks Tony.

Like I said, no need to come up with a proposal unless we get a third seconder.

The gist of the already discussed unwritten proposal (which the BARCS committee has said I would need another three members in agreement with, before it can be progressed), is that because no pilots should be being encouraged to catch their models (potentially very dangerous if an electric pilot tries to do a nose catch) and we need general rules to cover all disciplines in MLG wherever possible, to keep it simple, HLG pilots should be given a 4 second turnaround bonus (currently 2 seconds is allowed per relaunch).

If 4 seconds is not enough, for a landing, pick up and relaunch, we can discuss that if we get one more volunteer.

Best regards,

Jef 

 

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Hello Richard,

Sorry for the delay in replying, I must have clicked "Mark site read" at the same time as you typed the above question.

No, there is not a quick link to the rules - they are available on this site though.

Jef
 

PS Just spent the last twenty minutes looking for the BARCS Rule Book... can't find it! 

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54 minutes ago, Jef said:

PS Just spent the last twenty minutes looking for the BARCS Rule Book... can't find it! 

Click on Home - BARCS - Members Area

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Presumably, the lack of PMs to my inbox means the proposal to change the MLG rules in favour of minigliders is dead.

Thanks for your time MikeF and TonyH.

He-He! I have an easy life for once!

 

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Richard Swindells

jef, i still have not found a copy of the current rules or the wording of the proposed change, so impossible to comment on that specifically. I will happily back a nomination if there is an obvious will for change by those who fly the event

I did raise a few ideas on another thread that you were taking part in, but felt that the discussion itself was a points scoring exercise so gave up.

Changes to the multi rules are not going to make a complete change the the popularity of the event for DLG pilots.

The competition is effectively a take on the BARCS open rules which are designed for larger models.... if by chance I am there while an event is on, I'll give it a go for fun. But regardless of turnaround bonus points, from my experience in anything other than perfect soaring conditions the competition is weighted against DLG's

Create a multi launch event with a 60m height limit for the electric models, 60m bungee for open models and F3K style tasks and I'm definitely interested.

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Robin Sleight

Hi Richard,

 

The multilaunch rules are (like all other BARCS rules) in the BARCS Members handbook, which is definitely accessible (as a pdf) in the members only section of this web site.  Until and unless someone (and I suggested that Jeff might care to do it) actually writes down the words of a draft proposal you will not find the specific text of such a proposal.  However essentially the current rules give a 2 sec add on for the second, third and fourth flight of a miniglider model - my understanding is that Jeff would like to see that raised to 4 seconds.  I personally think that if these rules are tweaked in this way, it might be worth a slightly bigger add on for any bungee launched mini glider as it must take longer to hook up to a mini bungee than do a discus launch.  However all up to the DLG flyers.

Robin

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Richard Swindells

Thanks Robin, rules found.

From a personal perspective, in good soaring conditions (i.e. low wind, summer day) the task suits DLGs. I can get 10 minutes with 4 flights no problem and a tipcatch & turnaround can be under 1 second... so I can harvest additional seconds through relaunches. For my 3rd flight i will stand at the centre of the circle and catch the model at slot = 9:58 and drop the model onto the centre of the circle for  my 4th flight , a full landing bonus and a couple of extra seconds bonus points. Therefore impossible for any non-DLG to win as my flight time will be > 10mins and a full bonus.

In poor conditions (5ms + wind) DLG's are flying in the turbulent boundary layer, very difficult to get flight times > 1:30 and almost impossible to be competitive with models that can launch into the higher, cleaner air.

I have flown a multi-launch event in these conditions and it was a wasted journey.

If it is thought that adding a reflight bonus will increase participation from DLG pilots then of course, add my name to the nomination... 

Personally if I were to fly a multi-launch event tomorrow, I'd take an F3J/F5J style model as it would be more fun for that style of event. I am not sure if rule changes can address this as we are trying to compare apples to oranges.

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OK Thanks Richard. 

I was hoping that MLG would be seen as the easy way into competing with a DLG, and would spawn greater participation in F3K as a result.

If I write anything, you will probably see it as a "point scoring exercise", so I suggest that the current F3K fliers write a proposal that they think will attract minigliders to participate in MLG.

I will happily be a seconder, for this proposal.

I thought Graham James had already dealt with the whole 'catching of models' thing in MLG long before I flew the class. This also needs to be written into the MLG Rules at the same time. IE. If a model touches anybody after launch/relaunch the flight score is a zero, regardless of which class the model is. I believe that novices are more likely to want to compete, if the ability to do a tip-catch is not an advantage.

If Robin wishes to write a further rule proposal regarding an added bonus for minigliders relaunched by bungee, then that is his choice. He must be careful not to prevent the bungee launcher from discus launching when it suits him though, so more thought needs to be applied than may have been considered.

Over to you guys.

PM me when you need a seconder.

Jef

 

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Richard Swindells

Jef, 

I've already agreed to add my name to your nomination.

Please don't let me spoil your proposal.

Whatever you think will get the most participation in MLG then go for it. I was simply trying to point out where there were issues with the rules that made it unattractive to me when I had actually taken part in the event a few times, when it was first introduced..

If you think the changes to the rule will also help transform MLG into a feeder class for F3K, then all the more reason to support it.

Richard

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Just to let you know that I am still working on this, but have a lot on at the moment.

Not least of my problems is a broken DLG which needs repairing, and then a day or two of landing / launching, to get a properly assessed turnaround time for those that cannot tip catch.

Whilst the weather is not conducive to flying in the UK, I am making good use of my time and nipping off to Egypt for some R&R and a bit of scuba diving. If the trip goes without a hitch (these are troubled times) I will be back on the job here in a couple of weeks.

You watch, the weather will return to 7mph warm, dry, breezes as soon as I get on the apron at Gatwick!

Jef 

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