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This Looks very Worrying

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Steve J

Have you read the press release on the IAA site linked to in the OP and looked at the EASA documents? 

Irish Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport, Paschal Donohoe TD - "Tremendous potential exists for this sector and Ireland is at the forefront of its development. The speedy response by the IAA to this fast developing aviation area will make sure that drones are properly regulated and registered for use. As a result, Ireland is well placed to exploit the drone sector and to ensure industry growth in this area."

Steve

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Woodstock
10 minutes ago, Steve J said:

Have you read the press release on the IAA site linked to in the OP and looked at the EASA documents? 

Irish Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport, Paschal Donohoe TD - "Tremendous potential exists for this sector and Ireland is at the forefront of its development. The speedy response by the IAA to this fast developing aviation area will make sure that drones are properly regulated and registered for use. As a result, Ireland is well placed to exploit the drone sector and to ensure industry growth in this area."

Steve

Mr Pathcal Donohoe (Minithter for Tranthport, Tourithm and Thport) hathnt a clue what he'th doing (ath uthual) :angry:.  He's always talking about how he's "determined thith; and dethided that" as though he is some sort of demigod.

I will adopt the standard Irish response to silly regulation: completely ignore it.  Having spent many days in Irish Courts as part of my job, the thought of being put in the stand for flying a glider amuses me greatly.  

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oipigface
1 hour ago, mikef said:

 

Your point about 'aeromodelling' being a good way of developing engineers is a good one....

A couple of names that instantly spring to my mind as aeromodellers in aviation are Sir Edwin Alliott Verdon Roe (AVRO) and Sir Sidney Camm (Hawker Aircraft) - a list of their aircraft is left as an exercise for the student.  There are many more.

My favourite contemporary example is not British, but has done the world a favour by increasing the efficiency of airliners to the order of about 30%. He is also almost singlehandedly responsible for the way DLG's look and fly. I refer of course to MIT's Mark Drela.

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Fletch

I see that MACI have removed the news flash entry, dated the 19/12/15, on their home page stating that they were seeking clarification from IAA on the new regs. Its not even in the archive. Whats to hide?

As an international example of how aeromodelling is good for developing/promoting engineering IIRC wasn't John Glenn(or was it Neil Armstrong), of moon landing fame, a life long aeromodeller?

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simon_t

A little more on what is going on in Germany - a long statement by their equivalent of BMFA countering attempts by minister to inflict a 100m height restriction.  Of particular note is the point about Amazon/DHL who are lobbying hard to get use of very low airspace, at our expense.  That might explain why Ireland is so keen to introduce restrictions, as they already have a lot of US major tech companies enjoying the low tax status.  And Amazon are serious about commercial use of drones - They have been recruiting  senior autonomous UAV control engineers from major defence companies:

https://translate.google.co.uk/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.dmfv.aero%2Fpresse%2Fwir-wollen-zukunft-und-sicherheit%2F&edit-text=&act=url

Simon

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Steve J
4 hours ago, Woodstock said:

Mr Pathcal Donohoe (Minithter for Tranthport, Tourithm and Thport) hathnt a clue what he'th doing (ath uthual) :angry:.  He's always talking about how he's "determined thith; and dethided that" as though he is some sort of demigod.

Nice ad hominen on the Irish Minister for Transport, but it doesn't really address his point. The Irish government want to encourage commercial unmanned aircraft operations in Ireland and see their registration scheme as part of doing this. How much does recreational unmanned flying in Ireland contribute to the Irish economy in terms of GDP and jobs and how much will commercial unmanned aircraft operations contribute?

Steve

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martynk

Paragraph 3.6.3 on page 25 states that it intends to  grandfather national and local arrangements with regard to model flying, This could be interpreted as we will carry on as before with a proven track record. However, I am not absolutely sure that is what it means unfortunately.

All EU countries (probably) have a national aviation authority of some sort that has their own set of regulations. I believe that in Europe EASA? harmonise flight safety regulations across Europe.

The CAA delegate authority for model flying to  a number of specialist bodies – like the BMFA > BARCS and the LMA that take responsibility for aspects of  the hobby.

CAP658 is not legislative – it is a guideline document although chapter 2 defines what a Model Aircraft is and cross references the various articles on Safety. However, there is no legislation surrounding WHAT these aircraft can do,

The EASA document (at first glance) proposes quite sweeping definitions and while grandfather legislation for aeromodelling may apply, this legislation is virtually non-existent in the UK.

For example – currently, there is no legislation on height for models under 7kg mass. There may well be. A new class on model is proposed for under 500g mass. We have nothing in the UK that is representative.

There is legislation (Article 166 and Article 167 and overarching Article 138) on where a model can be flown, which I would have hoped could have been used as a proven model and I think that is what we should be proposing as a workable solution.

I really hope I have got this wrong, but I would rather ask the stupid questions and be told to stop heckling rather than say nothing.

Happy New Year 

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Robin Sleight

I will see Manny Williamson (BMFA) shortly after the New year.  Manny is the primary contact with the CAA on behalf of the BMFA and associated organisations.  Subject to Manny's agreement, he could write to the CAA making the various points expressed in this forum on this topic, especially re-inforcing the point on potential restrictions on where recreational model flying is possible, height restrictions and the precedence of UK grandfather rights etc. 

I note too Simon T's comment about Amazon recruiting UAV specialist staff, but in the December CAA/BMFA meeting the CAA were very much of the view that the Amazon vision of drone deliveries was pie in the sky and the cynical view (for now) might be that the publicity it generated showing Amazon to be pushing technology was cheaper than advertising in respect of raising their profile.  However clearly Amazon and its ambitions are a worry.

Robin

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simon_t
25 minutes ago, Robin Sleight said:

...the CAA were very much of the view that the Amazon vision of drone deliveries was pie in the sky... 

Robin

That will be the drone that 'Ginsters' are developing :)

But seriously, the CAA have been very cautious about the flight of larger drones within this country in mixed airspace, whereas a number of European countries have been less so.  I don't think Amazon would be paying big bucks to some highly sought after and very knowledgable engineers if it didn't believe it had a reasonable chance of succeeding in it's vision.  The only reason we are allowed to use lower airspace is because other than near airports it's not been of commercial value.  The same used to be true of the upper areas of the radio spectrum.  But as technology allowed its exploitation look at the huge (many billions of pounds) licence fees that the government got from the telecoms companies when it sold off the previously unused radio spectrum.

Simon

 

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Steve J
1 hour ago, simon_t said:

 I don't think Amazon would be paying big bucks to some highly sought after and very knowledgable engineers if it didn't believe it had a reasonable chance of succeeding in it's vision. 

Amazon's vision doesn't make commercial or technological sense to me, but perhaps they just want to position themselves in case things change or perhaps the existence of the program gets them a few percent more discount when they are negotiating rates with couriers.

Steve

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pete beadle

Hi all

I wonder how happy MATS would be at the knowledge my next-door-but-one neighbour's son has been flying his Xmas present of a drone every day since Xmas, breaking at least two of the CAA rules every day - he seems to like it.......I don't!

I believe, I may be wrong, that the biggest problem Amazon faces at present is the almost insurmountable one of obtaining personal injury insurance for its activities in EU (low) airspace. As  Mercedes realised, when they revealed their radar activated automatic braking systems for their cars, users loved it - insurers didn't, and raised the spectre of a tightly bunched convoy of Mercedes vehicles travelling at 100kph-plus speeds where only one of them had to experience problems to total the lot - scary!

Imagine your friendly Amazon delivery system/drone arriving while your neighbour is enjoying his bit of back-garden flying - scarier?

And, on that note, Happy New Year fellow BARCS forum members

Regards

Pete

BARCS1702 

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pete beadle

Hi Jef and all

As with the last round of height limits proposed, it all comes down to who is going to be policing our potential transgressions and who in turn will be enforcing these largely arbitrary limits.....

How do you know if you're breaking these new rules? How do you measure the heights and distances involved to see if you're not already breaking these rules? One of our forum members has confirmed he is expecting to have to enforce this on ourselves and is already considering that the committees of local and even national clubs and bodies should be responsible for this....he's afraid of potential jail-time if we don't, apparently!

Come on chaps, let's apply some sense

The proposed changes aren't going to work because they will be considered unrealistic and unenforceable.....but worse, being enforced on people who are provably not causing the problem

Enough, let's find out exactly what they are suggesting we do, then expose their proposals to the light of reason and practicality, as is our legal right, then get the proposers to explain how these rule changes are to be enforced after they are exposed as unworkable in practice......

Then, we can start considering what the fuss is all  about  - and remember what the media already knows.....its only big boys toys ....isn't it?

Regards

Pete

BARCS1702 

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Dave Elam

Are those regulations on the NATS blog actually correct and if so when were they introduced. The reference to a general 400' maximum to all RPAS altitude seems rather dubious to say the least.

The fact that mixed units are being quoted (meters and feet) seems rather odd too.

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satinet

Mr Nats rpas expert isn't such an expert that he has read the caa rules on model aircraft and fpv flying which clearly state 400ft height as a typical height you can safely fly a drone at not a height limit.  You fly as high as you want as long as you can see the model/drone. 

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satinet

A lot of people are going to be agitating to get themselves made in to the corgi/gas safe/niceic/elecsa of drone flying because they see big money in it. 

What you will see is the spreading of a lot of FUD, aka fear uncertainty doubt, by those with a vested interest. 

 

The problem is the daily mail reader will fall for it

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Dave Elam

I've just made a comment on the NATS blog and it is awaiting moderation. Let's see if it gets published.

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EssexBOF
As there was little interest in this debate on the E Soaring site, I started a thread on it. Paul Newall has come back with a reply which highlights a lot of issues, notably the European perspective which seems to having even less responce, even though they would appear to be even more draconian than in the UK

We have the summary of the meeting of BMFA and UK CAA above and on the BMFA website. This explains the current position in the UK and what might happen in the near future. (An update to CAA Document CAP658 can be expected around March 2016). If what we are being told remains valid, then in the short term model aircraft operations in the UK will not be greatly affected.

Of very great concern is the intentions of EASA, the European Aviation Safety Agency who are discussing European wide regulation of 'drones'. Whatever they dictate, when accepted by the European Parliament, has to be embodied into the aviation law of each EU member state.

The discussion document from EASA can be downloaded by using the button shown on the web page with the following link.

https://easa.europa.eu/document-library ... pa-2015-10

The salient points are as follows.

Conventional model aircraft and what we understand as multirotor drones are lumped together as UAVs (Unamanned Aerial Vehicles).

The proposals suggest the establishment of three categories of UAV. For non commercial operations, most model aircraft would be classified as 'Open Category UAVs'.

The proposals include a weight limit that might affect heavier models.

The proposals apply restrictions on where UAVs can be flown.

The proposals restrict the height to which UAVs can be flown to a max of 150 metres.


This last item is the most obvious issue potentially affecting all forms of thermal soaring, including Open Glider, eSoaring, F3B, F3J, F5B/D, F5J, the various slope soaring classes and GPS Triangle Racing.

In the UK for models weighing less than 7kG we currently do not have any height restriction other than to remain in visual contact. Reading the EASA document, it seems that only the UK CAA has indicated that our sort of flying can take place at significant heights. The equivalent organisations of some other EU countries appear to have suggested that they already have much lower height restrictions in place, some even lower than 150 metres. This may be the result of a lack of clarity in differentiating between current model aircraft regulations and those applicable to 'drones'.


BMFA can work closely with the CAA and the CAA can put the model flying point of view to EASA, but if the equivalent organisations to CAA in other countries do not do the same, the UK voice will carry little weight.

Other forums show issues that are already arising world wide both within and outside of the EU, particularly in Republic of Ireland and the USA..

THIS WHOLE SITUATION REQUIRES A CONCERTED RESPONSE FROM ALL NATIONAL MODEL FLYING ORGANISATIONS VIA THEIR RESPECTIVE NATIONAL AVIATION AGENCIES.

If you are a non UK based reader of this forum, ACT NOW to make sure your own national organisation is working on your behalf.
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Woodstock
On 12/30/2015 at 15:54, Steve J said:

Nice ad hominen on the Irish Minister for Transport, but it doesn't really address his point. The Irish government want to encourage commercial unmanned aircraft operations in Ireland and see their registration scheme as part of doing this. How much does recreational unmanned flying in Ireland contribute to the Irish economy in terms of GDP and jobs and how much will commercial unmanned aircraft operations contribute?

Steve

Very little.  What the Govt. wants and what they get are two very different things.

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