2m Competitions in the UK?

[martynk]

Hi Jon

 

I think its important to get the ground rules right from the start. The life of a model is (for most people but not me) several years and we cant suddenly decide at some point in the future that models built in good faith are no longer compliant..

Regarding the 'E' variant, I have to admit that I think there will be more interest at a club level in an electric variant and perhaps we need to cater for that here and now. Perhaps height restricted under power to 75m and a 20 seconds motor run with a max 2S power pack would be comparable and perhaps allow the two variants to co-exist in a comp. All other rules/restrictions remain the same. However, I am a bit nervous about introducing more complexity at this stage but it would be a worthwhile discussion to have if we are formulating rules. 

Still haven't heard back from DAeC yet

[Whitmore]

Martyn, yes I agree. I was thinking out loud - perhaps it would be better to say that any model build from now on should comply with F3-RES rules and a summer 2017 competition will be run as F3-RES. That said if we had someone turn up with a glass fuselage Allegro Lite I'd be inclined to let them fly, especially if numbers were low.

For now, for the postal, I favour anything goes, to promote participation. But with the intention to encourage F3-RES proper down the line, maybe dividing it into F3-RES and an open 2m class if the need arose.

Regarding e-2m, I personally would rather concentrate on bungee, but if you and Ian can work out something that can co-exist in a postal, or run in tandem that would be fine.

The Slites have a six month wait on delivery and I have the Halo to build so there's plenty of time to work things out.

Jon

[satinet]

On 7/6/2016 at 12:00, martynk said:

I asked a similar question to this a couple of months ago. The Dutch also have a simple entry level 2M Electric Soaring class that was featured in RCM&E earlier in the year.

I think the UK/BARCS view is that 100S is the 'entry level' class in the UK. There certainly wasn't much enthusiasm for a home brew class. Being a builder I can't understand that of course

Personally, I like the idea of restricted technology airframes - it levels the playing field, however, without critical mass and support of the national body an idea like this wont go anywhere..    I still think an entry level e-soaring class would have more interest or potential - no bungees or winches or towlines and easier to fly and practice is possible in a restricted location.

However, I think it only really works as a class (with its own rules) not as a sub class merged with higher performance model rules (if that makes sense). There is nothing to stop you building a model like this and entering in open or F3J but that defeats the objective. If we could get 10 people to commit to building - including us, I would be more than happy to build one and commit to attending at least one event - more if there was sufficient interest and momentum.

Also happy to work with a laser cutter to produce a cut parts kit if someone wants to design a model - I'll offer to do the CAD work as well

 

 

 

Making a builders class unlevels the playing field as some people can design/build better models than other people. Or have the time to do it. At the moment in f3x it is a level playing field as you can basically buy the same model as the world champion in any discipline. Expensive yes, but also equal in equipment terms.  There's hardly any performance difference between different models.

That being said I agree that esoaring is the way to go for a 2m class. I don't really see the point in flying off bungees when esoaring is so cheap with light models. It sounds like a lot of fun, but it's also somewhat idealised. As we all know it's often blowing 15mph wind and small, light woodie models don't perform well on days like today.  Second problem I see is that sportsmen type classes never seem to take off in the UK. Everyone  moans about the cost of big moulded planes but you struggle to get any entries in restricted classes (it's been tried in f3f etc). And I always see people flying stuff like maxas for sport flying.  I think trying to get something going with a builder/flyer rule will never take off (pun intended).

 

 

[martynk]

8 minutes ago, satinet said:

Making a builders class unlevels the playing field as some people can design/build better models than other people. Or have the time to do it. At the moment in f3x it is a level playing field as you can basically buy the same model as the world champion in any discipline. Expensive yes, but also equal in equipment terms.  There's hardly any performance difference between different models.

That being said I agree that esoaring is the way to go for a 2m class. I don't really see the point in flying off bungees when esoaring is so cheap with light models. It sounds like a lot of fun, but it's also somewhat idealised. As we all know it's often blowing 15mph wind and small, light woodie models don't perform well on days like today.  Second problem I see is that sportsmen type classes never seem to take off in the UK. Everyone  moans about the cost of big moulded planes but you struggle to get any entries in restricted classes (it's been tried in f3f etc). And I always see people flying stuff like maxas for sport flying.  I think trying to get something going with a builder/flyer rule will never take off (pun intended).

 

 

Very good point, I am a bit blinkered being a builder (and designing I guess - although I have much to prove in this area).

I think the new generation of 2m models seem to be very light yet apparently penetrate well - and of course there is the option to carry ballast - up to double mass for the Allegro (Total AUW 36oz iirc). How well they perform in reality is yet to be proven, but light weight doesn't stop F3K from being flown in the UK..

Remember, this is meant to be a grass roots class and if it does generate interest then of course people will migrate to the more established classes as skills and confidence grow. This has to be good for the long term health of the hobby/sport/pastime and BARCS in general. Having simple to build construction kits available may also help with what appears to fulfill a slight resurgence in home building. Once there is a critical mass of models being built, then a second hand market will develop - I would expect that many of these aircraft will become available for less than £50 each - which is another incentive to have a go. This is definitely not a huge investment class.

 

[satinet]

I agree about f3k models, but then they are full compsite/moulded, not built up. Anyway my point was that we all get the idea that flying light models on sunny days and balmy evenings is great, and it is, but often the reality is quite different during the so called british summer. e.g like today.

 

i think there are a lot of good lazer cut woodies kits about at the moment. Well relatively speaking (e.g from hoellien etc).

 

[PeterT]

All good stuff here. My sixpennorth is that if an E version is going to be included (allowing Radians for example), make the spec as simple as possible. By that I mean, don't invoke height limiters. Specifying the max battery voltage, possibly max battery capacity or weight, prop diameter and motor run to suit the weather or flying field, it avoids the need for a further purchase, or 'loaners' for those who want to try the class. With a 3S (standard for the Radian as I understand it) plus say a 10 or 12" dia prop it's simple enough for the timekeeper to count down the run and call 'cut'.. With a bit of experimentation it should easy enough to ascertain a run that gives an average height comparable with the bungee launch.

[martynk]

The reason why I suggested a 2S was to (try and) prevent a ballistic climb which would be advantageous to an E spec if the air suddenly went warm. I have an Ohm Maiden (1.7m span)  built around a brushless motor and 3S power pack. That goes up like an 1/2A power model when I hit the giggle switch. It will certainly get to 75m in less that 10 seconds - 30 seconds and its at 400m +++ and still gaining height on the bunt. It needs thinking about, but I agree it needs to be kept simple

[martynk]

I have had a reply back from Dirk Spangenberg at DAeC

His response in italics:

The rear part of the fuselage, we call this area the tail boom .

He starts in the fuselage haunch (from half range of wing depth).

This tail boom can be built in CFK or GFK (as an example you can use an CFK tube).

This defines the fuselage and the part of the fuselage that can be composite. I think (almost certain)  this means that the composite element of the rear fuselage / boom can start from 50% of the chord of the wing..

 

The rudder arm and control linkages can be also in CFK or GFK.

The part about linkages is self explanatory

Is that OK? Nothing too onerous there..

 

Getting quite enthused about this now.. Finger is getting very close to launch the CAD application

 

 

 

[Whitmore]

Martyn, that's how I interpreted it, ie to prevent Elf DLG style boom and pod designs where the boom runs right through and takes the structural loads of the fuselage.

Jon

[Whitmore]

Just had a quick session with the RE 1.5m 'Barge' (420g) to try out the Hobbyking 10m/6mm bungee. It was great fun and plenty powerful enough.

I used 50m of 0.5mm/30lb monofilament fishing line, which is also quite stretchy. Wind was 10-15mph and I was getting about 90-100m launches. Zooming off the top with the parachute pinging down under tension.

Initial impressions are that this set up would be plenty good enough for a postal or sport flying with a 2m res around 400-500g. I don't think you'd need a full length set up as per F3-RES rules - the 10/50m gets high enough and is more compact field-wise.

I was able to work a bit of lift for a best flight of 3:00 but I'd guess a 'dead air' time of about 2 mins (with todays wind anyway.)

Testing will continue...

[EssexBOF]

I cannot help but think that a class for 2 meter gliders is a non starter, for most of the reasons stated.

It never caught on in the70,s, when there was a push to promote the 2 metre version of the Algebra.

Even the 2 metre class in Electric Soaring events being they Bartletts or E Soaring are not well supported, even the Nationals has only approx 12 entry's each year. When you consider all the foam models that fit the latter, it is surprising. I did start a Foam class in the Bartletts League, but this had such a poor take up, that it was dis continued.

Take 100S, this would have died all together if it were not for the following in the East Midlands, in the Mike Lucas Trophy events

Barcs 230

[Guest]

The prime objective of the 2m woodie initiative is to encourage an entry level competition via a postal 2 week recurring challenge aimed at the club flyer. This recognises that current BARCS/BMFA glider competitions are dominated by moulded models, winch launched or electric motor driven using 3 figure not inexpensive motor/battery/ESC combinations. This is a formidable task for the newbie to face starting from a zero knowledge base.
Should the 2m woodie event become popular, then its entry into BARCS/BMFA competition programmes would be self fulfilling. National competition is, however, not the main focus of the planned start up.

Regards Ian BARCS 1657 PMFC

[Ribs]

This is something I'd be very interested in. I built an Allegro Lite for just this kind of thing, but traveling long distances to comps is not always a great option for me, so the postal idea, while it gets going would suit me.

It will probably give me all the incentive to build another...better Allegro!

I think it's a good idea - well worth a go.

cheers,

Ribs (Mark Drela, Allegro Lite 2m, pure glider with hook and bungee..)

[Whitmore]

Better get cutting ribs, Ribs

Good to have you on board. An Allegro Lite would fit in to the 14 day duration challenge very well.

As an F3-RES model, it's stronger than it needs to be for bungee launch - the Baba Jaga design is heavily based on the Allegro but uses stock pultruded carbon and no kevlar wrapping on the spar. So you could do something less complex and lighter than the full winch proof Allegro design if you intend to bungee launch only.

That said, the Allegro Lite is still spot on for this class and the wooden fuselage version fits the F3-RES rules.

Jon

[EssexBOF]

Think I fall into the realms of the woody builder, as I still build models as well as fly the moulded variety.

The Watts Up electric wooden glider, that was published by Traplet, of mine would fit into the idea being promoted here, in the 2 metre version that I campaigned for several years. Very little conversion to add a hook for bungee/towline, plus it would be strong enough to take the launches as it is.  For it to be 2 metre the outer tips are not built, with a small tip on the end of the inner tip panels to bring it to 2 metre span.

A laser cut plan pack is available from Traplet, see this link for info

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1108935#post13079945

http://www.esoaring.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=438

Barcs 230

 

[ChuckGlider]

I've been waiting for something like this to come along. They've been doing this kind of thing for years in the good ole US of A where RES gliders are very popular, more so in fact that F3/5J types.

I am not a club flier and living in SE Wales, (where hills, slope and F3F are king), finding a field long enough to stretch out my 90m bungee to its full 200m length is a problem, although I have managed to find one area that is very suitable about a 30 minute drive from home.

The other problem I have with this kind of flying is wind. No, I haven't been on the baked beans again , but one of the reasons       S Wales is so good for slope soaring is that we almost always seem to have wind, and wind in excess of 10 mph. It's for this reason that I have only managed to fly twice this year with my 2m electric powered glider, (and managed a 20 minute flight on the first launch ) so I am still debating whether it is worth my while to do this, although I would like to. Decisions, decisions.

I do like the models from Hollein in Germany, of which I have two of their models, so I quite fancy building their new RES glider, AndREaS to build during the cold, wet winter months, along with a slope soarer too.

We'll see. 

Steve

[Whitmore]

Hi chaps.

Had a go with the Hobbyking 6mm/10m bungee and 50m line again today in very light conditions, wind about 3-5mph and very hot! I was getting less height with less wind but still around 60-70m. Bungee pinging off and down for 1 minute 20 seconds 'dead air' time.

I also measured the pull force with some fish scales. I was launching with 2-3kg of pull - 4kg would be quite a lot and should launch a heavier model easily enough. Stretched out on the ground I needed about 100m or so at 3kg.

The Barge is a 420g 1.5m span HiLite designed by John Steven's. It's pretty overweight so a modern 2m F3-RES at similar weight should get much better dead air times.

Over the last few days I've also flown in wind up to 20mph quite happily. Less tension is needed and launches are really quite high. No altimeter readings yet but at least 80m I'd guess.

So considering the wide availability and low cost of the red HK bungee or equivalent, combined with a reasonable launch for working lift (akin to a good DLG launch or better in wind) and the compactness required for lone operators in small fields - I'd be happy to plump for a 6mm surgical tubing, 10/50m maximum bungee for the postal challenge.

Jon

[Guest]

I knew I had this somewhere and it came to the surface in a box stored in the loft for some 20 years. It was the result of a trade, an ED Bee was my contribution and I never did get around to fly the model before it was stored. Aged fellows will recognise this as a Chris Foss Mini Phase kitted by MicroMold.   I could not resist the temptation to get it going spurred on by JW's F3_RES efforts.
Rudder / elevator with a 72" x 4” chord wing carved from solid 3/8” sheet with a spruce spar, it was a popular 1980’s  entry level soarer. As found it had 2 x Futaba 3003’ s (34gm each) with very iffy pots and a 4 cell Nicad giving a total of 0.2volts . Both of these were junked in favour of a pair of 12gm Emax analogue servos and a 600mah 1s Lipo. On the scales, it weighs a very porky 390 gms with the wings being 225gms and I very much doubt if it will be anything but a disaster but nostalgia rules and it would be churlish not to give it a flying chance.
It would benefit from a redesigned wing preferably not made from weapons grade balsa but it will have to show some promise on the bungee before it gets treated. So until my Slite appears, JW’s HiLite will be troubled  only by a Nan bitsa and a 1980’s throwback.

[PeterT]

Ian

Snap, I too have a MiniPhase residing in the loft, but mine is a good bit older than yours dating back to the early 80s. I used to fly it at Ivinghoe from time to time when I woz younger & had a bit more hair, but never from the flat. You've tempted me to dig it out and re-vamp it with new electronics, albeit probably from the slope again. Thinks, what other models are lurking there - a Todi springs to mind, but that's over 2m from memory

[ChuckGlider]

On 7/18/2016 at 17:19, Whitmore said:

Over the last few days I've also flown in wind up to 20mph quite happily. Less tension is needed and launches are really quite high. No altimeter readings yet but at least 80m I'd guess.

Jon

Hi Jon

I fly a Hollein Climaxx Compact E, 2m electric powered glider and my experience of flying that is that it struggles to penetrate, power off, in winds above 15 mph, (it just hangs in the air like a kite), and it is happier flying in 10 mph or less. So I'd have thought that today's modern 2m RES models would be similar.

The other thing about flying in windy conditions is that it makes it more difficult to locate and recognise thermals. I'm not saying it is impossible, just more difficult. I use the wind sock method for locating thermals but this requires a still or very light wind day for this to work. So unless you use other methods of thermal location, i.e. bird activity, locating thermals is often a case of pot luck.