2m Competitions in the UK?

[satinet]

Yeah that was kind of my point about woodies. Come contest day it tends to be windy.

[martynk]

How much ballast can the Climax carry? The German F3-RES rules state that the maximum wind strength must be less that 6m/s - recorded at 2m height for a minimum of 1 minute. This is a class limit that is less than the FAI limit I believe

I reiterate the point that F3K models are flown in the UK and  the competition scene seems to be quite healthy. The British weather doesn't seem to prevent competition from happening - maybe not as often as would be liked - but those who want to fly the class understand that and simply get on with it.

 

[Whitmore]

Josef Gergetz, designed of the Slite reports good flying in 17mph with it ballasted by 75g and the Slite is at the 'floater' end of the spectrum.

I dont think anyone is saying these models are anything more than what they are, simple, relatively cheap and fun in good weather.

Tom, the 'today' you referred to last Sunday was 24mph gusting 34mph here (I know because I was out sailing) Would anyone really be flying in that?

Chuckglider, yeah that sounds about right for an unballasted model. The HiLite (old heavy HLG) I've been playing with doesn't penetrate that well either or thermal for that matter, but the one time it was specked out (by Phil not me) was on a really windy day with big lift about.

I have to say that while constructive criticism is welcome, it does feel like wading through treacle sometimes

[ChuckGlider]

The Climaxx Compact has no provision for carrying ballast. The rudder & elevator servos are fitted on the balance point in the fus and as a built up wing it cannot carry ballast there either.

The majority of F3K models are composite, with very little frontal area to cause drag compared even with a 2m woodie with built up wings. They are totally different IMO and the two cannot and should not be compared.

I have a 2.85m F5J woodie also, but the performance of that is totally different to that of a fully composite F5J.

[Whitmore]

I don't think Martyn is comparing the models, rather just saying that they have a similar weather limitation.

I think being realistic about the performance and weather limits of woodies is valid - they are not going to match moulded model performance, especially the first generation designs in the class. (New designs appearing are better in this regard.)

However, the charms of the class (for me anyway) are the much lower cost, accessibility for builders and scope for designers (where else can a homebrew be flown competitively?) They're just cool models!

I've appreciated all the feedback positive and negative, but here we have a bunch of guys getting enthused about building model planes, surely a good thing? If this little project gets a few people having fun then I'm happy with that. I have some design ideas that will take me some time to develop but I'm quite confident the breed can be improved and adapted to UK flying.

So, we will have a 2m postal Challenge and see where that takes us. You can at least pick your weather for that

Jon

[Guest]

May I repeat that the focus of this initiative is not National competition. Its an entry level 2 week recurring postal. So you fly whenever the conditions are right for whatever model is suitable on the day. You do not have to fly in high windspeed unless you really want to. So fly early in the morning, late in the evening or in the lunch hour. If your model cannot take ballast then wait for another day when you do not need it.

[martynk]

Agreed and very well put both. As I said on ModelFlying if it doesn't take off I will have a nice 2m Glider that I can fly at my local field.

I will happily enter the Postal and I really hope that the class develops beyond that, if it doesn't then c'est la vie..

[Phil C]

For me, regarding time restraints for work, family etc.. Postal challenge is perfect.

I honestly think I would struggle to make it to many comps regularly, possibly a couple but as said all depends on weather conditions.

l really enjoy the F3K mosquito challenge as I can cherry pick my flying. 

This 2m postal will be another fun way to learn the ropes of another class & try to beat JW 😉

Hoping others will see the light, as JW said, there are some beautiful models available now which seem to fly as good as they look.

 

 

[ChuckGlider]

I'd be happy to take part in a postal vote competition, whether that be for an un-powered or powered glider.

As it happens, I've currently had a belly full of electric powered gliders. I've just had to replace the motor and ESC on the Climaxx Compact, as it was originally fitted with a geared motor with built in ESC, and the motor was sticking on start up and I couldn't free it without spinning the prop by hand first, which isn't ideal.

And my Thermal Instinct F5J has a problem where I can't get the motor to run at all, so I've changed the ESC but it is still reluctant to run. I have another motor to try on it but if that doesn't run either then I'm stumped.

So at the moment, a hi-start bungee is looking like a great option.

[Whitmore]

I did a still air test of the red Hobbyking 6mm/10m bungee and 50m 30lb/0.5m monofilament in zero wind conditions at about 8pm on Thursday.

The model is my old battered and overweight HiLite 1.5m (HLG converted to bungee) flying at 420g.

I used my gps to measure extension and a fish scale to measure force.

The bungee is actually 10.5m - HK were a little generous.

At 4kg extension was 115m ie 65m of stretch so assuming 6x stretch for the tubing, although in reality the mono is stretching quite a bit too. Other people are reporting 3-4x max bungee stretch. I need to test each element.

Interestingly, I got 3kg at 112m so the extra kg comes in the last 3m or so. It's obviously at almost full extension at 4kg/115m. Being so close to the max may shorten the life of the bungee (?) and doesn't really provide much more height because the initial pull force drops off quickly. So it would be more sensible to launch at 3kg and 100m or so.

Launch in dead air was perfectly adequate, it's still pinging off the top so I would estimate about 70-80m (still haven't had chance to put the altimeter in it.) This would be plenty high enough to find and work lift. Compared to DLG flying it seems very high to me!

Dead air times with the Barge were in the order of 2 mins 30 although I got a 3 minute in 'pleasant' air. F3-RES should do much better.

The video's a bit boring but for include for completeness. Release was on the third beep.

 

 

So my conclusions so far. The Hobbyking bungee should be adequate for lighter 2m models. In theory, the bungee pull force should be 5 times the model weight for a comfortable launch. Therefore this bungee should launch up to 800g models easily. The F3-RES rules lead to a larger cross section tube (seta tech bungee is 8mm) but stretched less. This effectively controls the launch force and available energy to keep launches very consistent.

My 30lb 0.5mm monofilament nylon is clearly stretching. The F3-RES rules limit the line to a minimum of 0.7mm (equates to 50lb breaking strain.) I need to test some thicker line and see how this affects launch height.

The intention here is to get a standardised Hi-Start for the 2m duration challenge that is cheap, available and easy to specify as a standard. It needs to gives an adequate launch similar to a good DLG throw (around 70-80m would be ideal) but also be compact for flying in smaller fields.

So some questions:

Is the HK bungee powerful enough? It should do the lighter F3-RES models perfectly well but I don't want to exclude people with heavier more traditional 2m gliders.

Do we need to specify a minimum line diameter to limit stretch?

Does the 3-4kg pull, 100m minimum field size and 70-80m launch sound the right balance for the postal challenge?

Jon

[Steve J]

What are you using as a stake?

Steve

[Whitmore]

9 hours ago, Steve J said:

What are you using as a stake?

Steve

I've tried several methods but I think a screw in dog stake is best if the soil is deep enough.

[PeterT]

Quote

Interestingly, I got 3kg at 112m so the extra kg comes in the last 3m or so.

Jon, not surprising, try winding a coupe or F1B rubber motor and you'll see how the torque increases significantly in the last few turns (just before it breaks )

Although I've not used it for years, I found that a dog stake was man enough for a 100" soarer a few years back and the corkscrew shape aids retention in the soil.

Peter

ps  For the line, instead of monofilament you might care to have a look at the Spectra Dyneema for sale on ebay for not a lot of money. It has very little (if any) stretch and is pretty cheap.

 

[EssexBOF]

Following this thread, it would appear that a postal comp is the preferred choice of the majority. That being so, why not organize one via this site to gauge what interest there is in such an event/class. You do not need one of the main bodies to run it, as the Bartletts League has proved over the years, any type of comp can be run via the internet nowadays.

The take up in the UK, will never approach that of the continent as proven with other classes.

[ChuckGlider]

I made up my own bungee using a dog stake, 10m of really heavy duty rubber which must be about about 1cm thick, then I have two 10m lengths of the HK Blue 8mm dia bungee, followed by 60m of 80Ibs test monofilament, which can obviously be shortened.

I put this together to launch my X Models Whisper 2m which I usually fly from the slope but it came with a hook fitted and does launch pretty well from the hi-start, as the video shows.

 

[Nicholls]

1 hour ago, EssexBOF said:

Following this thread, it would appear that a postal comp is the preferred choice of the majority. That being so, why not organize one via this site to gauge what interest there is in such an event/class. You do not need one of the main bodies to run it, as the Bartletts League has proved over the years, any type of comp can be run via the internet nowadays.

The take up in the UK, will never approach that of the continent as proven with other classes.

Wouldn't it be best to consider joining in the one that already exists on http://www.esoaring.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=3096 (That's possibly left me open to ....)

[martynk]

4 minutes ago, Nicholls said:

Wouldn't it be best to consider joining in the one that already exists on http://www.esoaring.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=3096 (That's possibly left me open to ....)

I though that was an Electric league. I didnt realise that existed .I'll delve further

Thanks

[Nicholls]

Apologies you're correct. I forgot this was a topic on 2m gliders (non-electric)

[Steve J]

21 hours ago, Whitmore said:

I've tried several methods but I think a screw in dog stake is best if the soil is deep enough.

So you wouldn't advise using a screwdriver  ? 

Steve

[EssexBOF]

On 21/07/2016 at 11:22, ChuckGlider said:

I'd be happy to take part in a postal vote competition, whether that be for an un-powered or powered glider.

As it happens, I've currently had a belly full of electric powered gliders. I've just had to replace the motor and ESC on the Climaxx Compact, as it was originally fitted with a geared motor with built in ESC, and the motor was sticking on start up and I couldn't free it without spinning the prop by hand first, which isn't ideal.

And my Thermal Instinct F5J has a problem where I can't get the motor to run at all, so I've changed the ESC but it is still reluctant to run. Ianother motor to try on it but if that doesn't run either then I'm stumped.

So at the moment, a hi-start bungee is looking like a great option.

 

My experience of electric powered soaring has been all positive, since taking it up from winch/towline & bungee launching, has been a win win scenario, for the last 10 years. No lugging winches out and setting up plus the biggest plus is no broken lines contests that can be a disaster in regards to results.

I have no experience of the motor esc you are using. You may need to play with the centering on the motor control on the Tx and the off set as well, to get it to run. A servo on the motor channel will show that it is working. Then connect the motor & ESC up minus prop to ascertain that the motor will run and in the right direction. I use a Ubec so as to check that the controls work before connecting the motor on all my models now.

As to light weight of these models, being a deterrent to them performing, I have been amazed at the ability of the Q12 2 Metre electric model, that does have a 4 servo wing, to penetrate in winds of 15mph and above, with a weight of 540 grams

.