Skorpion F3F Set-up Advise/Help

[Brett82]

Hi all

Just wondering if anyone who has ever owned/flown a Skorpion F3F can give me some race setup advise please. I'm picking up a second hand Skorpion and Mini Ellipse on Saturday and I want to get them programmed and ready to test fly Sunday if the weather is good. I've been searching the web and there is a decent amount of info to set them up but I cant find any info on rudder throws and weather or not to dial in reflex for race modes. The Mini Ellipse Is fairly straight forward although I would like to ask if I use the same throw settings for rudder as I would for elevator? Below are the settings I was going to use for the Skorpion from what I have found online. 

COG:                   103 to 105mm

Aileron:                19 up, 14 down (normal) / 17 up, 14 down (race mode)

Elevator:              +-6mm (a bit more for landing mode)

Rudder:                ??? Same as ele or more (or will this increase chance of flick)

Snap Flap:           3mm (light to medium)                 snap flap very important to avoid flick, include aileron

                            6mm (medium to strong)            

Reflex:                 0mm (light), ???mm (medium), ???mm (strong)

I know to bring the snapflap in as early as possible but I think this may be the first limitation I have come across on my Spectrum DX6. Either that or I still need to work out how to do it so if it can be done please let me know. If you think any of these are not a good place to start then please let me know, I have heard of how the Skorpion loves to flick but I want to avoid this as much as possible.

Thanks

Brett

[satinet]

Rudder throw is non critical and not very powerful, set it the same as the elevator to start. There's no way in f3f you would use a lot of rudder travel.

I don't think you need elevator travel when you're landing. You want the right amount of down elevator to come in automatically when you deploy the brakes.   With a vtail you normally have bags of spare travel on the servos so you should not have any problem having down elevator compensation and the same amount of elevator control as normal.

 

 

 

[Brett82]

Thanks Satinet

I did think rudder was not to important as I only use it a little with my other planes too. Not like flat field flying where you need a good amount in thermals.

With my willow I can program the ele to compensate for the crow breaks so I was going to do that with the Skorpion. I read somewhere as the speeds are lower to maybe have a little more on landing but I wasnt sure, I think I will go with what you say and just have the same travel for landing. Landing means closer to the ground, more ele means more chance of flick, mix the two together and I dont like the potential outcome. Thanks for the advise.

Any ideas regarding reflex?

Brett

[wookman]

I would be surprised if you do not into a good few more limitations trying to program an F3x model on a DX6.

Rudder is not critical, just dial in as much as you can get. It will not be very effective on a V tail anyway.

Elevator compensation for crow breaking will need a curved mix not a linear mix as all the compesation needs to come in early.

In my very limited experience of F3f there is far more to be gained as novice by flying neat and tight on the turns than you will gain with the subtleties of any flap setting.

 

[Brett82]

Hi Wookman

Thanks for the advise. I agree, my thumbs are going to slow me down a lot more than any settings I use.

I must admit the main reason for asking is there is so much talk of the flick (and I watched a video of it doing the biggest flick I have ever seen) that I'm more worried about any settings having a dangerous effect rather than trying to find settings to make the model go faster. That will come with time.

I am new to F3F but I really like the DX6 and I think you would be pleasantly surprised by just how much I have been able to program in for my Willow. 5 spoken flight modes, I can select any mix to come in on a flight mode or assign it to a switch, ele comp can be done on a curve (I have 80% comp coming in at 50% stick movement). Trims, throws, diff plus more can all be set per flight mode and when I flick a switch it talks to me so I know I've flicked the right switch (also stops me getting lonely when I'm flying Billy no mates...). 

I do admit there are plenty of better radios and for bigger models its very limited but for a 4 servo wing model it suits me just right. Plus for £120 (when I got it) you cant go wrong.

Thanks for the help mate, I do appreciate it.

Brett

[Andy_B]

48 minutes ago, satinet said:

Rudder throw is non critical and not very powerful, set it the same as the elevator to start. There's no way in f3f you would use a lot of rudder travel..

 

 

 

youve been out of it for to long Thomas

[satinet]

19 minutes ago, Andy_B said:

youve been out of it for to long Thomas

Why are you using 10mm or rudder or something?

[satinet]

1 hour ago, Brett82 said:

Thanks Satinet

I did think rudder was not to important as I only use it a little with my other planes too. Not like flat field flying where you need a good amount in thermals.

With my willow I can program the ele to compensate for the crow breaks so I was going to do that with the Skorpion. I read somewhere as the speeds are lower to maybe have a little more on landing but I wasnt sure, I think I will go with what you say and just have the same travel for landing. Landing means closer to the ground, more ele means more chance of flick, mix the two together and I dont like the potential outcome. Thanks for the advise.

Any ideas regarding reflex?

Brett

I don't find you need more travel. Put the brakes out and apply full down! (at height) see what happens, that will tell you. Agree what wookman says that most models tend to balloon up when you apply the brakes, but as long as you're aware of it, it's not a major problem.  I only started using a non linear curve recently.   I don't remember the skorpion being a difficult model to land or anything. 

Reflex was 1mm or so from memory (could be totally wrong here!). If you mean when to use it, I'm afraid not that's part of the art of flying f3f I guess!  The model is naturally fast from memory though.  Loads of people at f3f will have had skorpions so I'm sure the lads can point you in the right direct for stuff like reflex settings.

[Brett82]

17 minutes ago, satinet said:

I don't find you need more travel. Put the brakes out and apply full down! (at height) see what happens, that will tell you. Agree what wookman says that most models tend to balloon up when you apply the brakes, but as long as you're aware of it, it's not a major problem.  I only started using a non linear curve recently.   I don't remember the skorpion being a difficult model to land or anything. 

Reflex was 1mm or so from memory. If you mean when to use it, I'm afraid not that's part of the art of flying f3f I guess!  The model is naturally fast from memory though. 

Brilliant, thanks Satinet

I will put the reflex on a switch instead of a flight mode and fly it without for a bit then see what happens when I flick the switch. I just didn't know if I should put any in as nobody mentioned anything about it. I'm still no where near getting the Willow "dialed in" and I'm sure the Skorpion will also take a while before I'm happy with it. At least now I have a starting point which I can be confident is not going to give me any nasty surprises. You guys have both helped put my mind at ease. Now to collect it, get it programmed and pray for a decent SW or NW for Sunday.

Thanks for the help guys, its always very much appreciated. 

Brett

[satinet]

I could be totally wrong on the reflex, but it's not going to crash because you don't have enough reflex for optimal speed!

[Brett82]

21 minutes ago, satinet said:

I could be totally wrong on the reflex, but it's not going to crash because you don't have enough reflex for optimal speed!

You know what, I have been thinking about it and you are right, it makes perfect sense. The flick thing got me worried and stopped me thinking clearly.

Everything I have read says snapflap is really important and needs to come in early and if you need more "pull" in the turn don't increase elevator travel (that will make it flick), but instead increase snapflap. I was worried about reflex as that moves the trailing edge in the opposite direction to snapflap (fair enough by a small amount). So I was worried it would increase the chance of a flick. But now talking to you guys I just realized it will only flick when pulling back on the stick but that will bring in snapflap which will eliminate any reflex...  If I only had a brick wall to wack my head against.

Shows how helpful the forum is, I don't know how long it would have taken me to realize something so simple if I didn't hear you guys saying reflex wont cause an issue. 

Thanks again.

Brett

[swarrans]

I've owned a Skorpion for many years now and it is the easiest and most delightful to fly model I have.  It lands superbly too and is a pussycat whilst at the same time being very fast.  I believe the flick reputation to be unjustified but possibly came from people using much too much elevator throw?  I'm not sure how much throw I have without going and checking but I reckon it's less than 6mm - more like 3mm at a guess and still enough for square loops.

 

Simon

[Martin_N]

5 hours ago, Andy_B said:

youve been out of it for to long Thomas

It is very interesting to read people's thoughts on setup and what you should and shouldn't do when configuring the various program modes.

Brett, there will be all sorts of advice out there for you and lots that will be very confusing. Get a sensible CoG set up a basic flight setup and landing mode and rather than rush to get out flying, arrange to meet up with one of the more experienced pilots on the slope. Take a field charger with you, you may need to recharge a few times whilst you work on various flight modes.

One thing I do regularly see is pilots using way to many switches for different mixes and god knows what else.

Fyi we do use rudder more than some pilots think

[Brett82]

Thanks Simon, I'm beginning to think that with a bit of common sense the bark is worse than the bite. 

Really looking forward to picking it up, at least now I know what starting point to use.

Hi Martin 

That sounds like a good idea but I won't be able to get down to the Mynd until the comp. I wish I could cause I would love to have someone experienced standing next to me. Although I will be flying the Willow I want to have had a few flights with the Skorpion as a back up. 

If the wind is right I will take it to Burrough Hill which if anyone has flown there the will know its got a nice big landing are that's perfectly flat. I've flowen there a few times with the Willow so hopefully I should be ok. Maybe Jerry can join me if he is back from his holiday in time. We have flown there together once before. 

Good idea about the field charger, I never thought of that. 

Brett 

[isoaritfirst]

I had a Skorpion F3b - think it was the first in the UK, up to that time that had been the DSL which had heavy wings, the F3B one was a nicer model.

My flying partner had the DSL and warned me to be careful with the setting as they were prone to flicking. So I set a conservative CG. I might be wrong here but I'm thinking 97ish. and went flying. 

The model was nice to fly but always felt like it would flick if you abused it. I flew it like that for a month or so but wasnt ever really happy. Then on the hill by myself one day I just took out a great big lump of nose weight shifting the cg back to 105ish (again memeory on the number may be sketchy but i think that was right)  I down rated the elevator and expected a hairy flight. 

Absolutepussycat, and turned great with no thought of flicking.

The flick is caused by the elevator stalling, and this happens when you have too much throw, - which you need if you go all conservative on the CG.

So be careful and although Martins advice on being sensible with the CG is generally a very good idea, the Skorpion will bit you if you go too sensible. It all about having small elevator throws <6mm then getting the CG that makes it fly nice at that.

[Brett82]

Thanks for the response Mike. I actually saw a post you made on an old thread from years ago and it was that post that made me decide to set it between 103 and 105mm. 

It was that post that made the link in my brain of too conservative cog requires more throw which stalls the elevator. Find the mid point between to far forward and too far back because both cause problems. 

I bet you didn't realise you helped me before you even posted here, haha. 

Thanks mate 

Brett 

[Peter G]

I think this might have had something to do with the 'flicky' reputation 

http://www.knewt.com/planes/f3f/skorpion/skorpion2/index.htm

To be fair to Kevin, there is a warning about the ele setting!

[Brett82]

Thanks Peter, I have not actually seen that one. I have seen a different write up he did but in that he never posted any of his settings. Then I saw others talking about Kevins write up and his settings and I kept thinking where are they getting them from?

I see he has 10mm on the elevator, I don't think I will be going that far.

Thanks for the link mate. Speak to you soon. 

Brett 

[jwest532]

1 hour ago, Peter G said:

I think this might have had something to do with the 'flicky' reputation 

http://www.knewt.com/planes/f3f/skorpion/skorpion2/index.htm

To be fair to Kevin, there is a warning about the ele setting!

I tried Kev's elevator set-up many moons ago and remember thinking that his day job must have been transcribing the works of Shakespeare on to a single grain of rice, or something similar

  

[Stefan Bertschi]

29 minutes ago, jwest532 said:

I tried Kev's Elevator set-up many moons ago and remember thinking that his day job must have been transcribing the works of Shakespeare on to a single grain of rice, or something similar

  

I actually got a "NEIN, NEIN, NEIN  from Thuro when I said to him that I don't need settings, as I will copy the ones from Kev's site :-).

If I find time I stick together my Scorp and give you the CG (it's on the conservative side - so not flicky). I do not fly it often but still sometimes (testing conditions on slopes without a 'landing out' area. And yes I use a bit of reflex +/- 1.5mm on the flaps (and aillerons alligned) but when I think properly about it the linkage has so much tolerance that it can be everything from -1mm to +4mm :-)