F3-RES UK Competition Interest

[satinet]

On 16/01/2017 at 12:46, Neil Stainton said:

> I see on this site that Inter glide F3j has now gone over to F5j due to lack of support.

LOL. For several years Palo Lishak any myself have been suggesting a start height logger to improve F3J scoring but they haven't been interested, and this is the result.

> Think in my view it would be better to use a cheap motor not exceeding say 75 watts,rather than a hi start with all the bother that they entail.

If I was designing a new 2m class I would probably take F5J and limit the span to 2m. But we aren't doing that here, we are trialling a new very successful class that has sprung up in Europe over the last few years. The idea is to try the German/Austrian format *exactly as perfected by them* before we attempt to "improve" it. My experience of electric thermal soaring ruleset changes is that a large proportion are retrograde, not improvements.

Neil.

No one has ever been able to explain how a logger is going to work for winch launches though.

[Neil Stainton]

No one asked. I think Palo demonstrated a hook where a pin was pulled out when the model came off tow, and the logger sensed this. There are many ways of sensing tow hook release.

Neil.

 

[Jef Ott]

15 minutes ago, satinet said:

No one has ever been able to explain how a logger is going to work for winch launches though.

The RC Electronics unit that reads from the onboard units (that measure F5J launch heights), has an F3J setting. No idea how it works.

 

[satinet]

7 minutes ago, Neil Stainton said:

No one asked. I think Palo demonstrated a hook where a pin was pulled out when the model came off tow, and the logger sensed this. There are many ways of sensing tow hook release.

Neil.

 

That's not the zenith of the launch though.  

How long after the pin is pulled do you take the measurement?

What happens if the line snaps and the chute goes down wind? Maybe in to tree. You get a DQ?

It sounds simple in theory but it isn't. 

 

[Neil Stainton]

> That's not the zenith of the launch though

The logger could log the tow release height, or the max height achieved in the time from launch to tow hook release plus X seconds, like F5J. It would be up to an FAI committee to decide the parameters, the scoring methodology, etc.

Obviously if your equipment fails there will be consequences.

 

[satinet]

42 minutes ago, Neil Stainton said:

> That's not the zenith of the launch though

The logger could log the tow release height, or the max height achieved in the time from launch to tow hook release plus X seconds, like F5J. It would be up to an FAI committee to decide the parameters, the scoring methodology, etc.

Obviously if your equipment fails there will be consequences.

 

I don't agree with your assessment that the "problem" with f3j is the scoring system.  F3b has declined the same or worse and it doesn't have much debate about what the scoring system is.  The problem is people don't want to fly off winches or tows because of convenience - you need a lot of room/strength/line breaks/equipment etc etc.   For real F3j you need 2 men to tow, plus yourself and plus a launcher for most people.  It's a lot more work playing about with lines.

There isn't a point in flying off winches or hand tows unless you are going for max height. If it's down to a tactical decision about how high you should launch then you might as well just fly electric instead. 

 

[Neil Stainton]

LOL. When the died in the wool glider guilders are finally discovering the joys of electric flight I am trying to interest people in the new line launched thermal soaring class. It looks like I am 180 degrees out of phase with everyone else, as always.

[JBF]

I have the impression that a long time ago when I started flying model gliders that 2m models were quite honestly a bit rubbish for flat field flying due to performance in our often weak or marginal thermal conditions - seems like 100" + was the only way to go.  It looks like there are now some very nice 2m RES kits available thanks to the popularity in Europe.

I'd potentially be interested in building something for this class next year.   Have you had much success?  Did you come to find a cheap and readily available standard for the Bungee?  If nothing else it seems like potentially a nice class for park flying with a smallish bungee.

 

P.s. sorry for resurrecting the old post but it seemed to make more sense than starting a new one.

[martynk]

I enjoy flying the class. My local flying field wont take a long line - even 100m would be problematic unless the wind is straight down the strip so the 50+10 we use for the postal suits me fine.

Like most lightweight models, they don't penetrate very well in anything greater than a very light breeze. The only ballast option I have is to change the carbon fibre joiner for a steel one. This helps but I need to find a better way to carry even more ballast.

Flying on a 50m line is very challenging, you have to find lift very quickly or you will be down in a couple of minutes. I have certainly learnt how to read the air a lot better than when I started

For the postal we use 10m of Red 6/4 bungee with 50m of 30lb bs line - bought from my local fishing tackle shop.

 

[cirrusRC]

the alternative is to stick a motor in your RES.   Doesn't add much more weight and performance is still very good.     Still getting to grips with my dad's Andreas Electro, but was able to pick up some low level lift and spiral it up like a DLG.   Only negative at the moment is when entering lift it has a habit of sticking its nose up and causing a stall (it's quite exaggerated).   Still playing around with the CG though.

[JBF]

On 09/08/2018 at 15:00, martynk said:

For the postal we use 10m of Red 6/4 bungee with 50m of 30lb bs line - bought from my local fishing tackle shop.

 

Any reason for not using an official F3-RES spec bungee?  I'm guessing this is what the guys in the US and Germany are using:

https://www.hyperflight.co.uk/products.asp?code=RES-HI-START&name=f3-res-high-start-silicone-rubber

How does one take part in a postal, what are the rules etc?

 

[mikef]

My understanding...

Assuming that by 'a postal' you mean the challenges on this forum, the rules are given at the top of the current challenge thread.  Eg https://www.barcs.co.uk/forums/topic/8342-6th-2018-2m-hi-start-14-day-duration-challenge/

You post the details for your flight as specified in the thread.

The shorter bungee is used to allow smaller fields to be used for the 'challenge' flying.  The challenge rules allow a wider variety of models to be flown, not just the F3-RES compliant ones.

 

The F3-RES rules are more comprehensive and the bungee is controlled as below.  Beware, this is a google translate version from the German which I have cleaned up.

Launch
a) The bungees are organised and selected by the organiser.
b) The bungee consist of a 15 ± 0.2 meter rubber hose and a 100 ± 1 meter nylon line with a diameter of at least 0.7 mm with a knotted flag.
c) The rubber hose may not exceed a maximum force of 4 kilograms when extended to 45 meters. The deviation between the rubber hoses used may not exceed 0.4 kilograms. The minimum tensile force for an extension to 45 meters must not be less than 2.75 kilograms.
d) On airfields that do not allow a rubber length of 145-150 meters in the extended state due to their size, the organiser can make a necessary shortening of the nylon rope. A corresponding shortening of the frame (slot MF?) and the maximum flight time can also be made. It should be noted in the competition notice (see point 10).

MF note:  There's a launch line 145 m. downwind of the bungee stake(s).  I assume this is to limit the stretch to 30 metres.  (The 15m 'rubber hose' is stretched to 45m at that point.)

 

[Whitmore]

53 minutes ago, mikef said:

The shorter bungee is used to allow smaller fields to be used for the 'challenge' flying.  The challenge rules allow a wider variety of models to be flown, not just the F3-RES compliant ones.

Mike is correct. The other reason is to limit launch height to shift the emphasis to working low level lift.

There is no F3-RES in the UK. A few of us tried hard to get it going a few years ago but the effort was met with a largely universal 'meh' from the majority of experienced UK competition pilots. Rather disappointing since in other countries F3-RES has built a base of beginner friendly comps and model builders that everyone seems to lament the lack of here. The American scene is now well ahead of us and some of their top pilots are flying the class.

The 2m challenge was set up as to promote F3-RES to some degree but it's just a for fun incentive to get out an fly really.

[JBF]

Interesting.  It is a shame that there isn't more interest.  I like the idea of simple models with some level of building effort required - as opposed to the heavy wallet required for the more exotic carbon wonders flown in other classes.

Understand the point regards the shorter bungee but then IMO if you want to operate out of such a small field and emphasise working very low level lift, surely you would fly DLG's?  The F3-RES specs of 150m sound perfectly reasonable for most parks (slightly longer than a standard football pitch).

One great benefit of this class would seem to be that it is compatible with local parks here in the UK.  Most (at least in the SE) prohibit flying of any powered RC aircraft (glow or electric) but the byelaws will tolerate pure RC gliders.

[Whitmore]

10 minutes ago, JBF said:

Understand the point regards the shorter bungee but then IMO if you want to operate out of such a small field and emphasize working very low level lift, surely you would fly DLG's?

Yes, the 14-day Challenges began years ago with F3K and Mosquito DLG classes. The 2m version developed out of these as a fun way to fly F3-RES out of small fields and also for those unable to launch DLG's for whatever reason (I have stopped flying DLGs due to a dodgy knee sadly.) The 10/50m set up gives you around 80m launch height - plenty for the duration challenge but low enough to make you work a bit. And there are a lot more small fields around, I can fly from a small village Rec rather than a full size playing field.

[cirrusRC]

4 hours ago, Whitmore said:

I have stopped flying DLGs due to a dodgy knee sadly.

you could fit a tow hook to your DLG and use your bungee.    I will do the same when my ankles give up.

[Whitmore]

Yeah I've tried that with an older DLG (Taboo GT) but didn't find I enjoyed it much. A dedicated light RES model goes much better on a line IMO. I do miss DLG though 

[Tony]

FYI from RCGroups posted on the 30th August

F3-RES Rules - 2018 English ASA_V1 (1).pdf

[Pete in Northiam]

Happy New Year all! Just to say at least two of us in the East Sussex Soaring Association are building F3-RES models for competition in 2020 (including the 2m Challenge) and we have just received RES-Eagle kits from RBC. I found this thread because many people were complaining elsewhere that the current HK bungee is rubbish compared to the original postal rules.

I also have a Euro standard  F3-RES bungee from Hyperflight.  These are excellent and still available.  I have launched my 100" Kloudrider from it for good thermal hunting.

Could we consider using those, either full length or shortened, as a standard for this comp in 2020? I appreciate the desire to keep launch height down.

Cheers --Pete

[Whitmore]

Hi Pete,

We had this same question arise with the international version of the challenge and I decided that a 15m bungee was accepted as long as the total unstretched length remained 60m ie a 45m static line. https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?3009419-International-2m-14-day-Hi-Start-Challenge-2018

In think the would be the way to go for the BARCS version if others agree?

Not much has been happening with the challenges recently - my whole season was wiped out by breaking my ankle - but it would be good to get it going again in 2020. There have been rumours of a proper F3RES comp too.

Jon