F3-RES UK Competition Interest

[Pete in Northiam]

Just to stick in yet another tuppence worth - I don't enter competitions to win, I enter to learn how to build and fly better.  

I only compete with my own-build models.  I'm not drawn to any competition that is all about money instead of time, effort and skill.  Not that I have anything against someone flying a full carbon superplane - if it's made by the pilot from raw materials.  

[cirrusRC]

In the right conditions my f3RES is a joy to fly.  In windy conditions rudder elevator is not responsive enough and lacks penetration.  Given most comp schedules are fixed and the British weather you are forced to run comps in less than ideal conditions.    As a result my appetite for an f3RES comp is pretty low.

I'd rather fly something with more durability / performance / penetration in such conditions.  Such as a DLG.

[DaveH]

I have had a couple of RES kits on my shelf for a while.  I had not started them because I have nowhere or very limited places where I could practice bungee launching (plus very few in my club have any interest in it).  Now that the building season has arrived, I was thinking that I might build my Andreas and/or RES Eagle as electric launch. This is much easier for me to fly at my flying sites and it does not effect any of the other members.    I guess that I could just add a hook and fly off bungee if necessary.      

  The weight penalty of the motor and prop need not be very much, I estimate that the extra could be as low as 40g.  Given the problems that a light airframe might experience in less than good conditions, a little extra weight may even be desirable.   

What sort of climb rate might be needed for an electric RES comp?  

 

 

[Pete in Northiam]

12 minutes ago, DaveH said:

... I was thinking that I might build my Andreas and/or RES Eagle as electric launch. ...

Just to say the RES-Eagle has a (near) twin in the already-electric Red Eagle 

https://rbckits.com/shop/red-eagle-glider-complete-kit.html

[Pete in Northiam]

For all F3-RES fans, Andy Sephton is giving a talk on F3-RES at the BMFA Free Flight Forum on Zoom (free web access at zoom.com) on November 15th. Costs £5 to register for the whole FFF meeting

https://freeflight.bmfa.org/2020-forum

Meeting starts 10:00, talk at 14:00.

A day out without rain or even leaving the house!

[StraightEdge]

Just a few personal thoughts on the question of RES comps - whether bungee or electric launched.

1.  Unlike those countries which typically enjoy relatively settled 'continental' weather systems, our rock pokes out into the north Atlantic where the dominant system is maritime (wet and windy) and much more labile - a lightweight RES simply can't be viably campaigned in our statistically unreliable weather in any given competition year.  By contrast all other thermal classes of non-organic construction with variable camber wings can.

2.  The serious players will always be drawn towards the cutting-edge of things (carbon, DLG, the various four servo wing classes, electric launch, GPS, etc) whereas F3RES and the suchlike is would only realistically be of interest to a small 'amateur' minority here in the UK.  (And, with ref to Pete Beadle's post above, the whole thermal soaring scene is already so much smaller than it was a generation ago!)

3.  What a lone F3RES enthusiast can however do is wait for those random days which are flyable locally, and partake if they wish in a duration postal.

4.  Nevertheless John M is right about the focussed work needed to drum up interest, and in this regard an article for BMFA News on the simple (building and) flying joys of RES certainly would be very positive (alongside a full-page ad for, say, Hyperflight!).  But I suspect that the numbers genuinely interested would still be very low, and insufficient to generate actual competition interest.

Just my thoughts.

Jon

 

 

[Mr_SMO]

I seem to have (re) started quite a topic. Reading all the posts again, there seems to be some form of consensus that getting people interested in the first place will be an uphill struggle. 

A number of posts have referred to our unsuitable weather patterns, suggesting this would rule out their likely participation in any Fx-res.  I simply don't see the 'res' designation changing this. 

All that can be changed, is a cheaper plane, that can handle the likely poor weather conditions, which brings us back to either full house 2m, or foamies. At 1800g, the 2m MPX Funray can handle strong winds, is full house, and costs a fraction of the carbon models. 

Working away at sea, I'm not in a position to organise, but for anybody who is, some enticement to model shops that sell these planes to communicate with their customers that there is a competitive environment that can be engaged in, would surely help. This could be complimentary to FB page, BMFA publications etc. 

Again, just my tuppence worth. 

[martynk]

There is nothing to prevent f3-res midels being ballasted. We choose to fly them at the 300g mark, there is no reason why they shouldn't fly in a breeze at say 600g, they will glide about twice as fast and probably a great deal more efficiently. Still air duration would be affected of course but without any formal comps we will never really learn what these models are capable of.. 

At the moment, I am having a think about the postal comps for next year. 

Would welcome any suggestions

[Pete in Northiam]

My two thoughts. Postal conps are a good way for many to be able to enter without special travel etc.and are an opportunity to rope in fellow club members. And short bungees are good: I am in five flying clubs none of which have space for 100m+ lines. 

[John Minchell]

In addition to my post above on spreading the word to get more people interested in the F3 / F5 RES class of glider. 

I have just had confirmed that I can arrange more "events" at a private airstrip close to Shrewsbury for 2021. 

As well as the scale glider aerotows and GPS triangle racing weekends I am already planning, I am prepared to organise (with Martyn Kinder) an F3 or F5 RES day or weekend where we can all fly in the same air on the same field to help with growing it.

John M

[mikef]

With my BARCS hat on, I am working with the Ivinghoe Soaring Association to include F3/5-RES 'come and see/try' content to a couple of BMFA Buckminster F3K weekends next year.  We have 19-20/6 and 24-25/7 booked.  F5K is also to be encouraged.

[Whitmore]

On 26/10/2020 at 14:24, StraightEdge said:

1.  Unlike those countries which typically enjoy relatively settled 'continental' weather systems, our rock pokes out into the north Atlantic where the dominant system is maritime (wet and windy) and much more labile - a lightweight RES simply can't be viably campaigned in our statistically unreliable weather in any given competition year.  By contrast all other thermal classes of non-organic construction with variable camber wings can.

The 100S scene has managed to survive though?At least in some form. Also RES and not much bigger. It's obviously changed since the heyday - now everyone flies a Tracker! But people still build competitive models for the local competition. I think that current F3-RES designs have developed to favour light conditions but the rule itself doesn't prevent you designing something better suited to 'poor' conditions?

I'm glad to see some discussion of this again. After several years and not much happening I maintain a mild interest but have no strong opinions. I do enjoy flying my Slite in a field on a nice day though

Jon

[Wayne B]

Hello all.

After a long time away from gliders I was interested in F3res a few years ago after seeing an article somewhere, but thought I would hold on and see what happened about rules in the UK. Time passes and a few years later finds me here and the same discussion seems to continue, personally I was looking for an un complicated class that I thought may be fun to enter that wouldn’t break the bank and would have fairly stable rules. Maybe I shall just build one   anyway and if a comp is organised I could enter.
Wish you all luck.

[martynk]

34 minutes ago, Wayne B said:

Hello all.

After a long time away from gliders I was interested in F3res a few years ago after seeing an article somewhere, but thought I would hold on and see what happened about rules in the UK. Time passes and a few years later finds me here and the same discussion seems to continue, personally I was looking for an un complicated class that I thought may be fun to enter that wouldn’t break the bank and would have fairly stable rules. Maybe I shall just build one   anyway and if a comp is organised I could enter.
Wish you all luck.

Yes. Please build away. We need critical mass to make this worthwhile. 

[Wayne B]

Ok MartynK,

By the way if someone could shed more light on F5Res ?
thanks for any info.

 

[DaveH]

On 28/10/2020 at 19:50, Wayne B said:

Ok MartynK,

By the way if someone could shed more light on F5Res ?
thanks for any info.

 

I believe that there are no rules set out yet for a UK variant of the F5RES, E-RES etc.   There have been a few ideas put forward in this thread.    

I'd like to join in a comp/meeting if near enough, to try an electric powered RES comp.   Electric power launch is my preferred variant.    I guess that one detail that must be worked out is how to achieve a launch height that all entrants will feel is fair.  Having to buy an altitude limiting device may not suit all, especially those that only want to try it out, maybe with an existing foamie etc.      

Early this year, I devised some "rules" that might have allowed a similar comp to be run within my club.     The method to be used (Covid killed it off for this year) was to allow each entrant a fixed amount of energy (battery capacity) for each launch.   Before the start of the comp all entrants' gliders are weighed and their max input power measured.  From this, if we allow say, 3000Watt seconds per Kg of energy, each entrant would be given a climb (motor-on) time in seconds.    My 650g 120W e-glider would be allowed 3000/120  x.65 = 16 seconds. My timer would ensure that the motor was off at the end of this time.  What an entrant does with their allocation would be up to them.  Some might gain max height, some might go for some upwind distance, some might go to where they think some lift is.  .................  The thing about this (untried) format, was that anyone could enter with any glider/sports plane without much fuss or the need to buy anything.  

At the moment, I am considering building a RES kit to include electric power.     

[Wayne B]

Thanks DaveH.

I know nothing of any of these rules, but have learnt over time that so called fun cheaper events get killed off by over complication. Not just in models. Good luck to any that try and good luck with your 2021 comp DaveH.

[John Minchell]

Dave H

An intresting idea, but going from my involvement CD'ing in RC scale competitions it is far too complicated to police.  The poor CD on the day will have multiple pilots with different ratios to measure and monitor.  It is just too involved and open to abuse.  Not saying it is wrong, but if those are the rules which come out then I am happy to compete, but you will be CD and I fully believe your enjoyment would only be brief before the hassle factor took over.

My 2 pence worth is it has to be easy to implement, understand and police, otherwise it will die on the vine.  Andy Sephton (as the new Tech Sec for the BMFA) is currently formulating a set of rules with Martyn Kinder's input, which will be simple and easy but also allow a bungee launched glider (F3RES) to fly in the same slot as an electric launched one (F5RES).

John M

[mikef]

This is how they organise the 'energy per weight' rule in the Free Flight class F1Q.  They need to weigh the models first of course.  In practice, the average comp runs on trust and I have never noticed any 'processing'.

3.Q.2. Characteristics
Nickel Metal Hydride (NiMH) and Lithium (Li) batteries can be used.
Lithium type battery packs must be in “as manufactured” condition with the covering around the cell surface. If more than one cell is used a balancer connector must be fitted.
External Battery packs are required to have a safety tether to the fuselage.
Safety locks must be used to prevent unintentional restarting of motor(s) after motor(s) have been stopped.
The motor run time will be determined by a maximum energy amount. In addition, motor runs over 30 seconds are regarded as overruns. The energy budget of each model is 3 joules per gram of the total weight. For energy calculations, weight exceeding 550 grams is to be ignored.
Models must have provision for connecting a Static Energy Test (SET) device between the battery and the model’s system via 3.5 mm male and female bullet connectors. The connectors from the battery should be male positive and female negative. It is the responsibility of the competitor to supply any adapters needed to connect to the SET
Energy limitation will be by an energy limiter. The allowed energy amount starts to be calculated with the release of the start button and finishes when the ESC has stopped supplying energy to the motor. The energy limiter has to calculate the energy consumed in real time. After coming to the end of the limited energy supply, the motor(s) must stop irreversibly.
For energy limit verification, a SET is to be connected to the model to allow measurements to confirm the energy used between the release of the start button and until the ESC has stopped supplying energy to the motor. To synchronise the time of release of the start button the model must include a cable connected in parallel with the start button and terminated with a 2-pin, 2.54mm pitch female connector. The SET must store and display energy amount used and motor run time.

[martynk]

I am not sure i would want yo go down the F1Q path although I admit it provides the greatest flexibility. 

IMHO, altitude limiting under power with a max motor run is the way forward for starters.  We could look at adopting something like f5j rules with a bonus or penalty based on motor off height sometime in the future but let's KISS.