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Nigel Godber-Ford

Qualifications

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Nigel Godber-Ford

Just a quick question, do I need any Qualifications to fly at any F5J  competitions? if so what would I need ?

 I have been flying for the last 6 years Slope Soaring & Scale Gliders etc.

Thanks

Nigel

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pete beadle

Hi Nigel

No, you do not have to be anything but want to be a competitor, and to be insured - usually by BMFA membership that includes 3rd party cover for competition use is specified

Any local rules for the specific competition will be provided by the organiser/CD - for example - if it is being run to F5J rules or local ELG rules eg at Bartletts Farm

Local rules will involve such things as whether motor re-starts will be allowed or whether specific height limiters are needed

Hope this answers your question

Regards

Pete

BARCS1702

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Nigel Godber-Ford

Thanks Pete for that Info.

Regards

Nigel

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PeteMitchell
7 hours ago, pete beadle said:

No, you do not have to be anything but want to be a competitor, and to be insured

Sadly this is not entirely correct:no:.

Virtually all competitions are run on club sites, and all clubs have safety rules, which apply to both their own members and  to visiting pilots.

Many club rules require not only proof of insurance cover but also of at least an assurance of the  level  of competence of each pilot.

This also applies to the BMFA -NFC.

,As previously mentioned, BMFA membership covers  insurance. But most clubs will also prefer the pilot to hold a minimum BMFA 'A' certificate for silent flight.

It's always best to check with the competition organiser when you make your application to enter any comp.

Hope that helps:thumbsup:

 

 

 

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Harry Peberdy

Interesting I am wanting to have a go next year at f5j  just waiting for my new  optimus  to arrive I have a b licence fixed wing I no it’s not b in silent flight would not this be sufficient ?

Regards

Harry 

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pete beadle

Hi PeteM

Sorry but when did  BARCS  rules change, can you tell me? As at 2016 I personally had NEVER been asked to provide proof of holding a BMFA "A" or "B"certificate or similar "qualification".....so the change must have been made in 2017, yes? Personally, I have never seen an announcement to this effect made at national level

Could you give me the date(s) these rules came into force please?

I'm not asking about the requirements of individual clubs, I'm asking regarding BARCS League or National comps and, particularly whether these "A" or "B" certificates are taken through the current  BMFA qualification system, in which case are they specific to glider operation on slope or flat field flying? Should I be speaking to BMFA on this?

Your help on this would be greatly appreciated, as I definitely don't want to mislead anyone else ....

Regards

Pete

BARCS1702

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SilentPilot

It wouldn’t surprise me if comp rules state that host club rules must be obeyed. 

It’s those club rules that will want to see proficiency standards. 

I do mean to get my A&B but I never seem to get round to it. Too busy flying :o 

 

Tony

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PeteMitchell
8 minutes ago, pete beadle said:

Sorry but when did  BARCS  rules change, can you tell me?

Nothing to do with BARCS, or as far as I am aware, BMFA rules.

Just commonsense and what is required by those who actually run comps, to ensure  safety for all, as far as is possible.

The majority of thermal soaring pilots have been at it for some long time, they are usually accepted as competent pilots. Many  have been flying comps before BARCS and then BMFA achievement schemes and certificates of competence were available.  But many of these pilots have taken the time and trouble to get tested, now that an electric motor is added to our models.

When a pilot , unknown or new to the CD, with no previous experience of flying in the crowded sky of thermal soaring wants to join in, CD's will all go out of their way to accommodate them, and to make sure they can fly safely. 

A BMFA certificate may not guaranty that the pilot is competent to fly thermal competitions, but it will  help as it shows that they are at least aware of the general safety issues involved.

As far as I am concerned, a B fixed wing pilot would be well aware of the safety issues involved.

 

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satinet

I've never been asked for anything other than insurance in f3b, f3f, f3k or f3j. I've also never been to a glider slope where you needed a certificate to fly.

In fact I've never been to any glider field you needed one come to think of it.

A fixed wing A or B is for power models not gliders which have their own achievement scheme.

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pete beadle

Hi Pete

quote "Nothing to do with BARCS, or as far as I am aware, BMFA rules.

Just commonsense and what is required by those who actually run comps, to ensure  safety for all, as far as is possible" - unquote

This is not the answer I was expecting, I thought I stated quite clearly in my question - quote" I'm not asking about the requirements of individual clubs, I'm asking regarding BARCS League or National comps and, particularly whether these "A" or "B" certificates are taken through the current  BMFA qualification system, in which case are they specific to glider operation on slope or flat field flying? Should I be speaking to BMFA on this?" - unquote

To me this is the very opposite of common sense. I have just expended quite a lot of money purchasing two F5J COMPETITION gliders in preparation for the 2018 season and now I'm VERY confused

For me BARCS run competitions to their own rules and clubs either state "this (local) competition is run to strictly BARCS OR International (in this case F5J)rules as varied by the CLUB/LOCAL rules

I was saying in my reply to HarryP that BARCS DO NOT require possession of a BMFA "a" OR "B" certificate AS A QUALIFICATION ....and I asked, when that had changed - I am now led to believe/understand that these QUALIFICATIONS are NOT required by our national body - BARCS? yes or no?

Whether the competitor thinks that it is common sense or not is, for me, irrelevant AND a whole different discussion to be had

So, please answer my original question, and remove the confusion as to whether BARCS does or does not REQUIRE any QUALIFICATIONS such as the BMFA "A" or "B" certificates to compete in BARCS competitions - please.......

Regards

Pete

BARCS1702  

 

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Austin

@pete beadle

You moved onto BARCS fairly quickly there Pete and confused the whole thing.

The original question was about F5J which is a BMFA class. You should really reply on the basis of that. Nigel is not even a BARCS member and your off on one about BARCS.

For Nigel to fly in F5J events he requires BMFA membership/insurance and no qualifications. 

I think it's clear that any local club can have local rules, these rules should be published before the start of the contest. 

From the BMFA website.

Quote

Cover is in place for all types of models as long as you are a fully paid up member of the BMFA no matter what achievement scheme certificates you may or may not hold. 

The above quote applies to BARCS competitions too. Unless the local club running the event requires otherwise. They may for example have a requirement by local authority etc..

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Nigel Godber-Ford

Well, that's all very interesting, I was also contemplating F3J also, I have BMFA membership (Country Member) so that's ok, but as mentioned most local RC flying clubs near me won't let you  on there site unless you have A or B certificate's, you have to pass at least an A Cert before they let you fly on your own, fortunately the local farmer lets me use one of his field's to fly and my Slope Soaring Club (WMSA) don't require any Certificates to fly solo, the thing is just because you have passed a BMFA A Certificate, IMHO that does not mean you a a competent Flyer,I know you would have an understanding of safety, which is very important. Lots of people pass there driving test ,but some aren't really competent drivers just that they got it right on the day.

Lots of stick time is more important,and being able to deal with thing in the air when they go wrong,the more experience you get flying the better, that what make a good pilot.

Regards

Nigel

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pete beadle

Hi Austin and PeteM

quote  from Austin - "You moved onto BARCS fairly quickly there Pete and confused the whole thing.

The original question was about F5J which is a BMFA class. You should really reply on the basis of that. Nigel is not even a BARCS member and your off on one about BARCS.

For Nigel to fly in F5J events he requires BMFA membership/insurance and no qualifications. 

I think it's clear that any local club can have local rules, these rules should be published before the start of the contest"-  unquote

Thanks Austin THAT was the answer I needed. Yes, you are absolutely right,  I DID answer incorrectly by assuming Nigel was intending to compete in BARCS comps, but, in my own defence - this IS the BARCS forum........anyway, I admit my answer to Nigel's question WAS incorrect and I apologise to Nigel for that

On the subject of qualifications though, I think Nigel has put forward the better reason for asking about the qualifications needed to compete, and in my opinion, the piece of paper you most want to have in your possession to prove your qualifications to compete is the International Competition Licence, for me THAT is the piece of paper showing you are taking the prospect of competition seriously. As regards competence to compete I too agree with Nigel that, like is car driving/licence analogy, the only way to learn to fly competitions is to compete (or drive), and learn by experience what is required of you. A lot of the knowledge required to compete is achieved by having to do things under pressure and make decisions quickly and correctly, and eventually instinctively, that is only learnt by being tested in competition

One final point though, if, in future, I am asked by a club competition organiser if I am in possession of a BMFA "A" or "B" certificate I will answer truthfully that I "only" have a BMFA "A" certificate - and, if that is not sufficient, I will NOT enter that particular comp. In view of the fact we (BARCS) can't get enough competitors to actually compete in the comps we currently run, I think that the clubs who do ask for these BMFA "qualifications" will soon be made aware that this requirement will be doing more harm than good, especially as regards entries

Regards

Pete

BARCS1702

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wixy

Talk about putting new comers off before they have even started .

Any potential F5J or ELG competitor  would have spent a small fortune preparing their inventory  .

And one would presume  seek some help  before taking to the air  .

I would advise anyone new to soaring competitions  no matter what discipline to inform the CD  when entering .

This will give the  CD the opportunity to offer assistance , be it themselves or fellow competitors.

Elitism does not exist in Thermal Soaring despite some off the **** you may read on Forums  ,all new rc pilots will be welcomed.

(take a friendly approach and you I’ll receive the same.)

There are far to  few  people Coming forward to organise  competitions  and club flying fields are difficult to come by particularly in the south east .

I presume this is why PM ,s reply might read as being misleading . 

A good flying site can easily be lost  by poor flying .

As far as I am aware all CDs in the Uk will only accept BMFA insurance  for you to compete  ( domestic Pilots) .

this will require BMFA membership .You will be asked to show prove off membership ,normally at the first Competition off the year .but might be at other comps if the CD requires it .

Your achievement scheme rating will be shown on your membership card  ( A/SFT) 

But it is not normally required  to compete  .

Dont be put off negative unhelpful  comments by forum junkies .

Come along to Any off the Barcs or Bmfa electric competitions  and talk to those that actually compete ,

you will then find  out exactly what you require and what to expect  when competing 

G

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Austin
5 minutes ago, wixy said:

Come along to Any off the Barcs or Bmfa electric competitions  and talk to those that actually compete

Best way really :thumbsup:

@pete beadle

So we can see your quotes better and make it easier for you, have a look at this post. 

https://www.barcs.co.uk/forums/topic/5937-quoting-and-editing-quotes/

Sorry to digress, back on topic...

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Steve J

@Nigel Godber-Ford Irrespective of any requirements or otherwise of sites hosting competitions, I would suggest doing the silent flight (electric) 'A'. It's a doddle and might make your life a bit easier in the future.

Steve

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Nigel Godber-Ford

An interesting thing is regarding qualifications, in January 2017 I decided to join my Local RC Flying Club which I did  and paid my subs,when I got to the flying field the first question I was ask was have you passed BMFA A or B tests, I replied no but I have been flying for a number of years although I was not an expert flyer, I would class my self as an Intermediate flyer,  I mention that I can fly RC Helicopters 450 size and Electric powered planes, but I don't have any Certificates. They than told I could not fly anything unless I was under supervision from the Club Instructor. So the only time I could fly was when the Club Instructor was at the field, which was a pain as I wanted to get a much flying time in a possible, as I am retired. but the Instructor was on there at weekends, Saturday or Sunday. I blame myself for that mistake I should have ask them first before joining, my membership is coming up for renewal but I have to ask myself is it worth join again as I only flew  there about 6 time 's. In my opinion is that they should say to me lets see how you fly etc and evaluate my ability, then say to me see how you progress and encourage me then take your BMFA Tests.

I know lots of people will disagree with my comment's that's fine I am just giving you my opinion, but how can you encourage new people  to the sport with these stumbling blocks, especially with the  large cost's involved to fly in the first place.

I will probably take my Silent Flight Electric A as suggested.

Regards

Nigel

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oipigface
2 hours ago, pete beadle said:

... in my opinion, the piece of paper you most want to have in your possession to prove your qualifications to compete is the International Competition Licence, for me THAT is the piece of paper showing you are taking the prospect of competition seriously. ...

Why? I remember spending quite a few hours practising the various manoeuvres demanded by the A and B certificates, before I actually submitted myself to the examinations. I don't remember exactly how many hours, or what the value of my time might have been then, but it was a far bigger investment than the flash of my passport while handing over a fiver that was necessary to get my FAI licence.

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tonym

Welcome Nigel, welcome Harry

All you need to show for our F5J or ELG competitions is your BMFA membership card. I only have an A (FW), fixed wing A, that I was 'forced' to get to fly solo when I joined a club before I got in to glider flying. Since then (2005 ish) I have never needed any BMFA certificates to compete in F3K (National and International), 200W/Kg (forerunner of F5J, I was the the first electric glider BMFA SF Nationals Champion, much to my and several other's surprise :-) ), F6D (2009 FAI World Air Games in Turin) and now F5J.

I'm usually the CD for the F5J events held at Little Bentley, Essex where no certificates of competency are required. All pilots have a helper/timer so 'new' pilots are sort of chaperoned anyway. Guidance will be given and any pilot that shows obvious signs of not knowing what they're doing would be stopped from flying - that has never happened at any competition I've run or been to.

We are a friendly bunch and welcome all new converts to competition gliding, whatever their ability. All we would hope is that you can land your model in the same field as we're standing in, though many of us have failed to do that on occasion :-)

Tony

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pete beadle

Hi OPF

Why? - asked and answered ........."THAT is the piece of paper showing you are taking the prospect of competition seriously"

and tonym

Let me turn this question round the other way.....If you don't NEED BMFA qualifications why are  previous "posters" saying they think you ought to have to prove your possession of them?

As I said previously.....with comps you learn as you go along and you get better the more you fly them.......and, for goodness sake, how does the ability to perform a loop, a roll and a low flyby tell you anything about the tyro competition flyer wanting to fly in your (gliding) comp?

Once again....... Currently we (BARCS) are crying out for larger numbers to enter and compete in comps, especially beginners - see Wixy's post above - so why are we suggesting we prevent their entering a comp because they haven't got a BMFA certificate - not logical Captain!:no:

Regards

Pete

BARCS1702

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