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Andy_B

Midland Winter League F3F 2018/19

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Brett82

Nice videos Kyri. Its great to see the different lines and turns people do, and even how they change their turns during the race. 

That base B was definitely making the competition more of a challenge and more unpredictable. Its nice to have that extra challenge thrown in there to mix things up a bit. Having the wind straight on can be great cause it helps with consistent times between bases and quick runs but for me, part of the fun, is learning how to fly fast when conditions are not perfect. 

I'm still trying to figure out how best to turn on the base going back into a crossed wind. Occasionally I can maintain the speed but then other times I think I've flown it the same and just as you think "that's the line I wanted" you watch the plane take a nap for a few seconds before deciding to continue back up the course. Got to keep practising, watching others and trying new things.  

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isoaritfirst

The other thing to consider Brett is Base A.

It was the easy base and you could fly almost how you wished around it and expect a decent turn.

Base A was the power for the runs and you can see very well in the video of Andy's run how much the Pitbull took from that base.

Getting good speed into base B made it easier to hold onto that speed, again easy to see in the videos.

Andy's run had a very sweet spot high on base a that was worth the time climbing too, the time used was easily repaid in the base B turn.

In my own runs, I varied from climbing to find a good turn point,  or simply trying to gain some "cheap" height when conditions were weak, or alternatively diving down into the 'V' created by the hill shape for a shorter course length, with a 60" pylon race style turn.

Both worked well, when done in appropriate conditions, but the lower line is harder to sustain through a number of legs as the conditions  at this lower turn point were more varied.

The decision as too which turn to make was often made by where I believed or felt some thermic influence was sitting, or how strong the wind was blowing on my right shoulder.

The decision had more to do with the remaining course than the Base A turn.

 

 

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Brett82

This is a very good point Mike and something I was trying to take advantage of. If you didn't pull some good speed out of base A then you had no hope going into base B. Where I was struggling was trying to find the best way to keep as much of that speed through B.

I manged to do it really well in one round getting a 41 or 42.xx, then did some other decent rounds that were not bad and maintained it fairly well. But then some I just seemed to lose the plot completely and lost all my speed around B. There were a few turns I definitely messed up but I suppose conditions change as the day goes on so its hard to compare one round with another.

One thing I did notice, trying to pull a tight turn on B did not work for me. Flying a more open turn taking me further from the slope and then sweeping back in seemed to be quicker, even though flying a longer course. Tight turns scrubbed the speed off completely for me, others seemed to do OK with them so I guess we need to remember conditions are only one factor, flying style, model set-up and countless other things can make a difference. 

Something I only realised that night was I never actually tried some proper reversals. The Fosa didn't like them much so I haven't really flown them properly since the Skorpion. I did some half hearted attempts but the round would suddenly be over before I had really put some effort into it. Looking at Greg's video, he did them the way they were supposed to be done and it worked. And that's the other lesson I've learnt from the weekend, if you going to try different turn styles then actually do it, dont do half hearted attempts because it doesnt teach you anything. 

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rc-soar
5 hours ago, Brett82 said:

I'm still trying to figure out how best to turn on the base going back into a crossed wind. Occasionally I can maintain the speed but then other times I think I've flown it the same and just as you think "that's the line I wanted" you watch the plane take a nap for a few seconds before deciding to continue back up the course. Got to keep practising, watching others and trying new things.  

The key is to maximise ground speed. And one can do this by trading off height for airspeed.

  • Fly high for the downwind leg
  • Descending turn, increases airspeed
  • Fly low for the into-wind leg
  • Climbing turn, reduces airspeed

The skill is in balancing the loss of ground speed in step 4 by the gain in step 2.  

As for actual turn technique, I don't think it's too critical. For the downwind turn I've started to use the 1/2 descending corkscrew (credit to Dave Woods for this tip!). If done properly it maintains ground speed at the exit pretty well. Another way is with full reversals adjusting entry/exit heights at each end.

Disclaimer: rules are there to be broken, especially when slopes come with rocks, trees and bends, but I try and keep this principle in mind when looking at a course.

Mike

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f3fisa

My technique was to do a climbing turn at base A and then a 1/2 descending corkscrew  turn at base B.

With only1.1Kg available on my new Shinto, the into wind turn was a struggle.

One thing I discovered  in the 1990 Viking Race at Buxton when watching the Germans (Kowalskis) was that we always tend to under ballast. 

With a cross wind you need a lot more ballast, and I wish I could have added an extra 1Kg, as you only have to see how high most people were at the start.

The lift was very variable and I think there was at least a 10 second difference between good air and bad air. (Thermal/wind direction)

On one of my flights with the Shinto, the lift suddenly came through and it was like flying on rails with the electric motor on, I then just did pylon turns, at least it showed me the possible performance of the model.

Compared to my Pitbull 2 the Shinto is much easier to fly, the Pitbull is faster in a straight line but more difficult to get the turns correct.

Greg was using his rudder on his Pitbull 2 to good effect.

I enjoyed the variation in lift conditions but not the walk uphill to land.

David.

 

 

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Baldyslapnut

Interesting reading the posts on turns and the different styles and approaches. Great stuff and informative.

On the video of my flight it was the only time during the day I used the reversal technique. Most of the other flights I tried to do pylon turns. Including my fastest time on the day.

Andy and Mike watched almost every flight and would have the most complete view of what worked and what did not.

If you watch my flight  on the video you will see I managed to get one turn where the plane pinged really well and it caught me out. The extra speed meant I made the next turn too big and the plane disappears out of shot as Kyri was expecting me to fly in the same place as the last downwind leg.

Dave is right I do use rudder. I give the rudder stick a waggle when I turn the plane on to make sure it is all working.

In my last post I did joke about I was surprised you can fit so many different turns into one flight. However, I think this supports a common theme in the posts. Adapt your turn to the height, speed and amount of cross wind the plane may be encountering.  As Dave states lift comes and goes through the space of a flight, what may be the right type of turn for the first few legs may not be right for the remaining part of the flight. No one turn type is the go to answer.

Just my thoughts but in comparison to most of the pilots in the league my flying and knowledge of F3F is very rusty.

Happy Landings

 

 

Greg

 

 

 

 

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isoaritfirst
3 hours ago, rc-soar said:

The key is to maximise ground speed. And one can do this by trading off height for airspeed.

  • Fly high for the downwind leg
  • Descending turn, increases airspeed
  • Fly low for the into-wind leg
  • Climbing turn, reduces airspeed

The skill is in balancing the loss of ground speed in step 4 by the gain in step 2.  

As for actual turn technique, I don't think it's too critical. For the downwind turn I've started to use the 1/2 descending corkscrew (credit to Dave Woods for this tip!). If done properly it maintains ground speed at the exit pretty well. Another way is with full reversals adjusting entry/exit heights at each end.

Disclaimer: rules are there to be broken, especially when slopes come with rocks, trees and bends, but I try and keep this principle in mind when looking at a course.

Mike

A few thoughts may or may not be correct but I enjoy exploring them and as the winter league is all about sharing. ........

We score based on ground speed, the issue is how to maintain it. 

I believe Airspeed can hold some answers. In our example base A climbing up and turning slightly outwards into wind will, if the conditions are right, quickly increase airspeed, then exiting the turn downwind will quickly reduce airspeed. 

The model will try to stabilise the forces acting on it and decrease and increase its ground speed. Time it right as when DS ing and the model may gain ground speed from this.

Go too high or too slow in the turn and the forces might stabilise while climbing and the advantage is then just extra height and possibly a tail wind, this has to be a loss of energy as getting to the height will take more energy than will be gained by diving back. When done correctly we call it EM but it could easily be called a Ds turn, and the potential is the same  

Considering our base B it’s a lot harder in the crossed wind to turn the model with energy  into a wind gradient, so height or momentum are the only remaining forces. Staying high on the run to base B holds onto some of the gravity forces until you get to the turn but not using all those forces on the run to base B will reduce the models momentum. Momentum may be used for a quick snappy turn to reduce the time the model is showing its plan form to the wind and possibly being blown back or slowed. Or it could be used to carve a faster open turn . The total energy available in the model when it arrived at base b will be the same, 

If the above is true then base b will be just as difficult whichever choice you make. Staying high and a reversal down to slope edge may give an easy line onto the edge. Driving hard towards the turn might allow a flat open turn that gives a better line back to base A . 

Hard to draw any real conclusions,  partly because The conditions are dynamic and partly because I don’t get it right often enough. 

Other thoughts, rudder becomes  more important in crossed air. Approaching base b  slight corrections of fuselage line can help to start the turn. 

Reducing inputs should reduce losses to drag.  I practice flying with just elevator through the turns and one snap aileron roll either in the course centre or at he 2/3 point  

I add rudder to change angles sometimes and add aileron to correct small errors But get it right without needing these corrections and it’s a great way to fly the course 

thermals are the answer, if you feel one fly to it and predict its movement. Move your turn points to suit where it’s sitting . Change your turn styles to either gain more speed or shorten t he course. 

 

But it I might just be overthinking it 

🥺

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Andy_B

I like Gregs summary  and need time to compile all of my thoughts and it probably should all go into another thread as this one does seem to have grown legs .

Briefly , you needed to concentrate on getting up and away at the start and keep in mind the wind is crossed .Make as much height and or speed you can get at base A and then try not to just drift back down to base B , no matter what you did at B if you just fell into it  to lost time I found getting more speed in I could hit the turn hard in a pylon style and that worked better for me .

I dont think anyone had the perfect style for the weekend , the closest was probably Brett and at some point he will come good and we all need to watch him ....🤩🤩

 

Andy

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isoaritfirst

Dave commented on how easy the Shinto is to fly. I agree and over the years of flying Shinto’s I have found that their accuracy in flight has allowed me to explore different styles with more certainty than other models give me. 

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Scram

Amazed at the amount of interesting discussion my "observations" has produced.

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Andy_B

This weekend is the 5th rnd of the Midlands league , normal stuff will have a weather call Friday evening and can you either RSVP in the calendar or let me know your coming .

 

Andy

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Baldyslapnut

I am in. Dave Woods is going and will confirm I am sure.

Maria test flew her new F3F yesterday I believe and may attend.

I am sure you will get a good turn out if the forecast is okay.

Looking South Westerly is that flyable?

 

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Andy_B

Greg South West is spot on 

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isoaritfirst

I did have a squint at the forecast🙂

lets just say - it doesn’t get better than what’s currently predicted. 

Make sure you have your pass out signed and models charged. 

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isoaritfirst

Last month we had a challenging comp with the wind coming from wnw to nw .thats a direction where we would not generally fly Pole Cot.  It made for a challenging comp. 

Saturday’s current predicted direction of wsw to sw is perfect. 

Addimg in some cloud early afternoon to stop the sun being in the way is also perfect. 

Wind speed predicted as 25-40 mph is perfect.  😁

I expect the road will be closed. 

But if it’s not then you should be there. It’s going to be a nice day of racing. 

Really looking forward to this one. I don’t recall ever having such a good predicted forecast. 

 

Xxck that’s torn it. 

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Kyri

This forecast looks good, but what do you mean about the road being closed - is this a problem, is there another way to get there?

 

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Andy_B
9 hours ago, Kyri said:

This forecast looks good, but what do you mean about the road being closed - is this a problem, is there another way to get there?

 

I cant see why the road will be closed Mike ........its been above freezing for a few days now .

@Kyri   they have snow gates to stop the less able brummie drivers from driving over the edge in more than 2mm of snow 

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isoaritfirst

Don’t panic! 

Just a joke, based around how for the last couple of years virtually every comp was cancelled for a variety of reasons. 

This winter has been astoundingly good so far. 

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fpljohn

Real shame

But I'm working tomorrow, was hoping to be there as I need a day out on a hill.

have a great day

JP

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Skip

Wish I could be there too! Winter league isn't the place for two little kids (7 and nearly 11! Not so little anymore!) to hang around watching their dad have fun.....

Looks like a brilliant day in the making! have a top day ☺️

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