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Kyri

Needle 124 setup help

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Kyri
On 02/11/2018 at 09:52, Skip said:

I've not tried the Needle without snapflap. A big part of me wants to say be very careful as the speed increases. But I have no experience of flying ANY moulded speed machines WITHOUT snapflap.

Actually interested to see how you go without it ūüėä

I flew it again without snapflap, and more ballast - but didn't really bank and yank, and always turned into wind. It was fine and stable.

I remembered your comment though, and will need to make sure that when I load it up with more weight, I go easy to avoid a high speed stall and make sure there is plenty of wind!  

If I can get any decent footage from today I will make a video, for you to comment on how it is turning. Looking at the recent comp videos though, my plane is very slow! I didn't have enough aileron movement (or it wasn't going fast enough) to do reverse type turns (or whatever they are called, like on your recent vids)

Cheers!

Kyri

 

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Brett82
33 minutes ago, Kyri said:

it seemedÔĽŅÔĽŅÔĽŅÔĽŅÔĽŅÔĽŅ very slow compared to the recent comp videos I have seen posted (very impressive!!)

I wouldn't worry to much about that. The recent Northern and Welsh comps have had the best conditions we have seen in years. They were going fast because it was a mixture of skill and awesome conditions, the perfect storm as such.

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Skip

It didn't look slow in the video you posted the other week¬†ūüėä

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paul garnett

The N124 is not a slow model, as someone who has a prototype model and a proper N124, yes there are two versions!! the plane seems to look slower than it is due to its size, its very deceptive, just fly it and let it fly! don`t be scared of using way more ballast than you think, I have regularly flown mine at the max limit even in marginal conditions.. I seem to do ok.! Accurate flying will get better results than sheer speed anyway.

I would have posted my setup of the N124 but lost it when my tx died.. but my cg was at 110mm my current one is at 112.5mm yes .5 mm

 

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Kyri

Hi Paul, thanks for the comments. I am currently uploading a short clip, it is not the best footage and no music but you will get to see the plane on its latest outing. I would appreciate all your comments on it. Note that I have no rudder or snapflap yet, and you even get a shot of some vintage transmitting equipment with special switch protectors :) 

My cg is at 92mm or so,  and I wasn't using the full elevator movement possible at full stick movement (~6mm). I should have added more weight. 110mm sounds to be at the other end of the scale!  

I did notice that the smaller planes could be overtaken if I kept the speed up, even though they looked faster. I am used to flying smaller powered gliders 1.5-2m so maybe as you say the bigger plane just looks slower.  The planes in the comp videos look fast, especially when close in! I kept it quite far away from the slope. 

Just out of interest, what is the difference between the prototype / "proper" N124? 

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paul garnett

Your cg is too far forward, you wont be getting the wing working with it that far forward ..go back to 95mm and try that  and when comfortable try it at 98mm, I use a piece of lead taped to the fuze boom whilst experimenting, et it up on a cg machine and mark the boom at various points to give the desired cg I suggest ..you can then fly and land and quickly move cg without messing around..

The difference in the N14 is that I have a longer tail moment as per the prototype, it was changed to the type you have to try get it to turn quicker, something I think was a mistake..both are good but longer is better,

Its also very sensitive to Aileron  differential, if your way off this will really start increasing he drag on that big wing..

also when setting up snapflap, try to do it as close to you as comfortable with the radius of the turn right in front of you, this way you cabn see what the plane is doing, ie is it bogging down , is the tail wagging on exit, is it skidding around the turn, these will give you clues of how to best set up snap flap /elevator/rudder and cg..it sounds complicated but once you get the hang of making changes and recognising the effects t gets easier.. take a look at my post on the Northern winter league, there's a video on showing a few turns in slow motion..look at how balanced they are around the turns.. The models aren't Needles but you get the jist of it..

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Kyri

Great info Paul - I will have a good look at those videos. 

Longer tail, that is what happened to F5B planes over the years and they turn much better now. The Needle was snapped behind the wing, I could have extended it! Food for thought if my repair turns out not to be strong enough :)

 

Here is the short clip. What do you think of the turns in the latter part. Any tips or comments would be much appreciated!!

 

 

 

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paul garnett

You started to get to grips with it at the end, but I would say the cg is too far forward and the aileron diff is out, If you look carefully at it when you start to bank it tries to skew into wind then its nose rises up, now look at the video of of myself and Mark flying, you will see almost instantly the model starts to bank the nose lowers slightly, its masked a little as we are pulling up to set in for the turn.. just play with the settings and you will see how little changes make a big difference to the feel of the plane..

Parlick is a great slope, had some cracking flyingup there, its just a long bloody climb up..haha

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Kyri

Paul, I have had a look at your videos, very interesting to watch. For mine, the cg I can test very easily, Regarding the ail diff, I do have some, what do you mean by "out", do you mean not optmised ie, ratio of up to down needs to change?

I forgot to mention, I also set the surfaces with about 1mm camber and the bottom of the ailerons and flaps are level with bottom of the wing,  if these had been raised a bit it would have gone faster but I feared less grippy in the turns. Another compromise / limit on my tx. Just thought I would mention it in case it is related to the diff and how it turned. 

Parlick is great, but I took quite a bit up there the other day. 3 models, ballast, loads of layers, spare batts, tools, spares etc, water, even took a meal I heated in the microwave and wrapped in my clothes and ate when I got up there. It meant I was carrying a bit of weight and we climbed the steep side quite quickly (eager to fly!). There were joggers up there, I was a little jealous of them not carrying anything! Like you say it is worth it.

 

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paul garnett

Yes play with the differential until it is giving more of an axial roll axis, not trying to tell you how to suck eggs mate but the needle is sensitive to been set up wrong...if you can  try reducing the down going aileron, rather than increasing the up.. I fly with my surfaces all lined up with the wing tip, I very rarely use negative camber, unless the air has got really big and then I can exploit the straight line speed without sacrificing the turn too much..

Are you using coupled aileron and flap as ailerons?

We tend to walk up the big side, deffo need a pie when getting to the top..haha

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Kyri
On 21/11/2018 at 22:30, paul garnett said:

 Are you using coupled aileron and flap as ailerons?

At the moment, no. I have around 20mm up and 10mm down on the ailerons, which is in line with thuros recommendation but if that assumes 30-50% flap movement as well then it could explain why it didn't roll very fast. I should try and roll it next time to see how it performs, and can adjust from there.  

 

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Kyri

I finally have the ability to control full span ailerons, snapflap, and rudder!  I just need to find some time (and weather) to get flying. Then I can start optimising it all. I can now apply these mixes to my F5B planes (which are similar but smaller and powered - although I might try one on a slope sometime, without a motor)

I am disappointed not to have been able to get to a comp yet, as I am sure this would accelerate my learning curve. I will keep trying to find an opportunity!

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Kyri

A bit of an update. I have been concerned about my 4 cell nimh pack getting too cold in this weather. Not that I have flown the needle since the last midlands comp which I really enjoyed. Anyway, I re-read this thread, which has really good information contained within the replies! I decided to go for 2x 18650 cells. I made a pack and when I get some sbecs for each servo I will have a better setup I think. 

As for snapflap, whilst it is possible to fly without it, the plane has to be flown very gently with minimal elevator - not ideal as I learnt. I haven't optimised snapflap yet,  but just having it is great and makes the plane much easier to fly. No wonder I had problems with 12mm elevator and no snapflap in the first flight I did... 

Here is my first pack, I will make another one. I used brass strip to join the cells and link the +/- at the top. 

pack1.JPG

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Kyri

I have been checking cg with the new battery and thought I would check the weight with all the ballast I can get in it. 5KG!!!!!

Not sure I will need that much. I have prepared options for 3kg (1kg in joiner or metal joiner) 4kg and 5kg.  No ballast tube, all in the wing with differing nose weights to compensate.

 

 

 

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simon_t
4 minutes ago, Kyri said:

I have been checking cg with the new battery and thought I would check the weight with all the ballast I can get in it. 5KG!!!!!

Not sure I will need that much. I have prepared options for 3kg (1kg in joiner or metal joiner) 4kg and 5kg.  No ballast tube, all in the wing with differing nose weights to compensate.

 

 

 

The model was designed with the maximum wing area that would allow it to be ballasted to 5Kg for FAI competitions.  Most F3F models have less wing area and cannot be flown at or near 5Kg in contests.  The Needle carries ballast well, so don’t be too concerned about using plenty when conditions allow.  The downside is that when heavy you need to get the landings just right, as there is a lot of inertia and it is easier to break something.

Simon

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Kyri
Just now, simon_t said:

The downside is that when heavy you need to get the landings just right, as there is a lot of inertia and it is easier to break something.

Yes this is my worry too, and I think I will practise more landings to be properly used to this plane before loading up too much.

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Skip

100% agree with Simon.

Because it carries weight so well it seems like the brakes don't work very well compared to other models. 

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Skip

I used to carry a nose weight to compensate for the 1kg joiner. I don't bother anymore and only fly it with the 1kg joiner or more. I don't carry the light joiner at all. I have another plane for light conditions, although I am pretty sure I can fly it like it is in light conditions too if I had any issues with the Precision.

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