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pete beadle

Meeting with Baroness Vere of Norbiton on 4th June 2019

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Sloper
1 hour ago, pete beadle said:

Hi Sloper

How are you guys in the model trade reacting to this? What with Brexit apparently only weeks away from collapse, you must be feeling that the model glider flying business isn't looking like a good long term bet? I hate to say it but some of you guys must be wondering what you did wrong in a previous life to have this "perfect storm" of bad news getting worse and worse every day.........

Seriously, are ANY of you still confident in the future of the hobby/sport? What, if anything, are you doing about these new regulations.....anything? Surely you can't be looking forward to the next few years? or do you know something that all of us don't perhaps?

Regards

Pete

BARCS1702

Hi Pete

its just one thing after another really, from hobbyking domination to brexit,  so its tough out there but  folk will always want to do their hobby,  as long as folk still practice our hobby/sport we will be here to support that. This drone thing,  ive had insight from a long time ago,  we supply to UAV companies and universities so we have knowledge of whats heading our way

Personally i dont think it will stop us from pursuing our hobby we are not going to role over and die thats for sure. As you can see the DFT/CAA/Gov just want to be ahead of the game regarding safety and setting the framework for the future, same as all the other countries, i really can not see them chasing modelers out of the fields and hills, they are focused on the big bucks projects, inner city activities, so setting the rules of the roads of the skies now rather than later so it dosnt  interfere with the speed of tech developments and the benefits of that.

 

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cirrusRC

Is the registration cost per model or per person?

Ignore - I saw an article in the Times stating it was per model but BMFA confirmed it was incorrect  so answered my own question.

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Tooks

I’ve been reading this thread with interest, and thought I might add my perspective as somebody who works in the aviation industry. 

I used to work in the Police helicopter field, a bit of a funny area legislatively as they are ‘state’ helicopters flying to civil aviation rules, albeit with some easements and exemptions. 

Picking up the RC hobby again after 20+ years out, I’m surprised that there aren’t more rules around flying models. I know that we’ve been subject to the ANO for some time, but even so not a particularly onerous set of rules to follow. 

When working with the CAA I got to know a lot of them quite well, and I found them generally very well disposed to model flyers, including drone hobbyists. Permissions for commercial drone operators were well developed and clearly a good source of revenue for the CAA. 

I can easily understand why some think that drones/drone flyers have caused nothing but trouble for the established model flying community, and that the impending registration system is an affront to ordinary law abiding people. 

At the same time, I see the situation as a choice between paying a modest fee and continuing to enjoy the hobby wherever and whenever I choose subject to the existing rules, or having wide ranging bans in place across much of the country where legal flying becomes impossible. 

Maybe the fear of being stopped from enjoying my hobby has got to me, or working for so many years in a heavily regulated work environment has made me more compliant than most, but either way I can’t get too upset about the requirement to register, watch a few videos, and pay a fee. 

I am concerned though by how this does seem to be negatively impacting some fellow modellers, and on that basis alone there must be something wrong with the proposals.

On balance, and respecting those who have an entirely different view, I would rather trade a limited registration scheme and fee to keep the relative freedoms of flying where I have permission and in compliance with existing rules. 

I do think the scheme has serious flaws though, and the economics don’t seem to work at all, and I’m sure the proposed fee will increase when the optimistic numbers being touted fail to materialise. It also seems to ignore the reality that criminals don’t generally register anything they intend to break the law with, so why they would register a drone or other aircraft beats me...

I don’t think the education part would go amiss for some though, I’ve witnessed model aircraft being flown in some unsuitable places or quite anti socially. 

Anyway, It will be interesting to see how it all develops. 

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EssexBOF

I had not realized the £16.50 registration charge is per model!!!! So if you own 10 models £165 per annum. Better cull your fleet Pete

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cirrusRC
1 minute ago, EssexBOF said:

I had not realized the £16.50 registration charge is per model!!!! So if you own 10 models £165 per annum. Better cull your fleet Pete

Did you not read my post above?

It's not per model it's per person.

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EssexBOF
3 minutes ago, cirrusRC said:

Did you not read my post above?

It's not per model it's per person.

No, sorry missed that Cirrus, must not take what the press say as gospel 🤐

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pete beadle

Hi Brian

More importantly, I assume you have not watched the 2 hours 20 minutes of the "Government Drone consultation June 11th 2019" posted by Sloper either......

This video confirms all our worst fears as regards the changes/amendments that are about to be applied to all of us glider guiders, who don't primarily fly drones

To answer Tooks posting as well, this video reveals and highlights the fact that we model flyers are about to be included into legislation that is directed at DRONE USERS and has absolutely nothing to do with  our hobby of enjoying the flying model radio-controlled gliders both as a sport and as a pastime

The vast majority of our membership are ordinary, law-abiding citizens who just wish to get on with our hobby as we have done for the last 50 plus years, and who consider drone operation as being completely pointless as a hobby. Unfortunately, the BMFA ,our  national body has got us into this mess by encouraging drone operators to join us all in a hobby they have absolutely no intention of following, and in doing this, out national body has allowed us to be included in the restrictions intended for drone operators which we do not believe are necessary in our hobby/sport

This video also explains most of the complaints we have for being included in the ranks of drone flyers, and several of the questions directed by MP's at the CAA representative (and  the other two persons answering questions), who are seen to be specifically referring to model flyers NOT drone operators. The feedback from thousands of model flyers is also mentioned but finally, as expected, the CAA representative has admitted, on this video, that these regulation changes would  probably be ignored by the drone operators who would actually be causing these problems, and that they had handed on this problem to the police to try to enforce these regulations.

THAT is why we are unhappy with these new regulations which, as far as we can see, will be destroying our hobby for no good reason

Regards

Pete

BARCS1702

 

 

 

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Tooks
7 hours ago, pete beadle said:

Hi Brian

More importantly, I assume you have not watched the 2 hours 20 minutes of the "Government Drone consultation June 11th 2019" posted by Sloper either......

This video confirms all our worst fears as regards the changes/amendments that are about to be applied to all of us glider guiders, who don't primarily fly drones

To answer Tooks posting as well, this video reveals and highlights the fact that we model flyers are about to be included into legislation that is directed at DRONE USERS and has absolutely nothing to do with  our hobby of enjoying the flying model radio-controlled gliders both as a sport and as a pastime

The vast majority of our membership are ordinary, law-abiding citizens who just wish to get on with our hobby as we have done for the last 50 plus years, and who consider drone operation as being completely pointless as a hobby. Unfortunately, the BMFA ,our  national body has got us into this mess by encouraging drone operators to join us all in a hobby they have absolutely no intention of following, and in doing this, out national body has allowed us to be included in the restrictions intended for drone operators which we do not believe are necessary in our hobby/sport

This video also explains most of the complaints we have for being included in the ranks of drone flyers, and several of the questions directed by MP's at the CAA representative (and  the other two persons answering questions), who are seen to be specifically referring to model flyers NOT drone operators. The feedback from thousands of model flyers is also mentioned but finally, as expected, the CAA representative has admitted, on this video, that these regulation changes would  probably be ignored by the drone operators who would actually be causing these problems, and that they had handed on this problem to the police to try to enforce these regulations.

THAT is why we are unhappy with these new regulations which, as far as we can see, will be destroying our hobby for no good reason

Regards

Pete

BARCS1702

 

 

 

Thanks for the summary of the video Pete, it saves me sitting through 2 hours of it!

Can I ask though, what specifically do you fear will happen that will destroy our hobby? What will you not be able to do after any scheme is introduced  that you can do now?

I totally get that we’d rather be left alone to get on with it undisturbed, and without having to register anything nor handover any money, but unfortunately the genie is out of the bottle.

Ok, I admit, I tend to be more of a glass half full guy and I would be very unhappy if this scheme was going to stop me turning up at my local flying site and flying my model whatever’s, but unless I’m missing something that’s not going to happen is it?

I’ve been involved in all sorts of hobbies and sports in my 50 years on this planet, and very few of them have required no licence/rules etc. I’m thinking shooting, fishing, motorsport club rallying, hot air ballooning and sailing to name a few! 

I remember a few flash points in some of the above, Dunblane was seen as the end for private shooting and firearms ownership, and the restrictions around use of our national forests for rallying was seen as the death nell for club stage rallying. Regulation and licensing seems to be part of our ever more crowded life nowadays, and I’m not sure how we stop it.

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Sloper

just to put a bit more prospective on this discussion about it being Drone verses Model, for me its more about flying within line of sight to flying beyond line of sight.

You can use any type of model at illegal heights and distance, its the FPV part that makes a model capable of flying beyond line of sight

 

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pete beadle

 

Hi Tooks

Sorry I haven't replied sooner but I had a lot to do today that wouldn't wait.........so, to answer your question.....hopefully......

The existence of our hobby is on a knife edge at the moment, changing the status of what we fly, by saying we fly drones, is, for me, and for many I know, the final straw.

We are now being forced to accept legislation that is intended to regulate drones, not model gliders, and we are being threatened with fines and legal action if we don’t comply. We are a large part of a fragile and already shrinking hobby which does not need further regulation. Drones do, yes, but we don’t

We are at a crossroads now, our aging demographic is proof that we haven’t got long to enjoy this wonderful hobby of ours, and to me, the final nail in its coffin is going to be this legislation that will simply be ignored by those that don’t accept it..........

What do I fear? I fear I’m right

Regards

Pete

BARCS1702

 

 

 

 

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Tooks

Thanks for your reply Pete, much appreciated. 

Well, let’s hope you’re wrong then, and I don’t mean any disrespect with that comment! 

Fingers crossed it doesn’t turn out to be the mess and disincentive that it could be. 

I don’t think there’s a lot that can be done now to be honest, what’s coming is probably coming. 

 

 

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Mikeb52

Yes, it’s a pain, but I will pay the £16.50, take the online test, and go flying! 

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Tony

Why don't we all stick together and just say "No" whether it's compulsory or not,, the problem with this though is that would we all stick together? Anyway my say is "No" pass it on....

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pete beadle

Hi Tony

Your/our main problem with this is that most model flyers  are by nature conservative, safety conscious and law-abiding.

They tend to have consciences too, and are very bad at kicking up a fuss and going against the majority view

I won't be doing this test, or taking the course on drones either, I'll simply go flying as usual and wait, like Brian Austin's mate, to be confronted by the officers of the law  and rely on my powers of persuasion to get me out of trouble........like Brian's mate, I believe I'll NEVER  have to do this. My only problem at the moment is where to get 3rd party insurance if the BMFA won't insure me, but I have already spoken to one insurer who would be perfectly happy to insure me, although I won't use him 'til I have to, which, hopefully, will be never:thumbsup:

Regards

Pete

BARCS1702

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Marc Sinclair

This hobby will never die! I will lie there chocking in my own blood clutching onto my glider and transmitter before I let any red baron take it all away! :)

Pete I think you are right in saying "model flyers are by nature conservative, safety conscious and law-abiding "...But have you seen these chaps when they switch?!  God help the authorities or any man woman or beast that tries to cross there path...lol

Like a few others have mentioned,  I would gladly pay a few quid if it helps our cause.

Quite frankly, I find it odd that people who fly aircrafts capable of incredible heights and speeds (hundreds of miles per hour in a dive) with the potential to cause damage death and/or severe life changing injuries etc can just carry on without any accountability/responsibility of sorts.

I guess that is where insurance comes in?  Are all you guys insured against damage and death to yourself/others etc?  I'm not but I should right? Advice is welcome.

I guess we are all budding pilots relying on our self taught/shared skills to control an aircraft in the 3rd dimension from the outside of the cockpit at ditance which in turn is heavily reliant on a good RC reception.  Things will go wrong.  I think we have to also think that there are more than enough people in this hobby that are not seasoned experienced good natured safety conscious law abiding flyers, often through no fault of there own. 

 

I've flow in a full size glider and if asked would I rather be hit by one or a smaller RC Shinto, I would go for the former because they are so beautiful and I am sure death would be just as quick if hit in the head  :)
 

 

Cheers

 

Marc  

 

 

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Marc Sinclair

How about being legally required to be part of a registered model club which in turn covers insurance and basic flying skills/health and safety etc ? We could pay an annual a fee to join and the extra income would go down well for our clubs/sport/hobby. The government could take there cut of the tax and perhaps a small admin fee from it? 

Perhaps the companies that supply us with kits tools and equipment that  potentially murders/kills people (tongue in cheek)  etc could also have a say/be part of the process?

It's in all our best interest to make things as safe as possible and be accountable for ones actions.

Ok enough ranting, time for some serious business...Breakfast time.

 

 

 

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EssexBOF

 

 

This response to the Chelmsford MFA secretary, I note that Vicky Ford MP for Chelmsford , is on the committee in the video shown on the link earlier. Chelmsford council had already banned the flying of drones & model aircraft, in all parks and open spaces over a year ago

 

image.thumb.png.49eac4fe606fcfe0705ecb15264f84fa.png

image.thumb.png.43ae39afab2088f0df1806cbc0b3777e.png

 

 

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Steve J
On 12/06/2019 at 23:36, pete beadle said:

we model flyers are about to be included into legislation that is directed at DRONE USERS and has absolutely nothing to do with  our hobby of enjoying the flying model radio-controlled gliders both as a sport and as a pastime

I don't believe that you are still fighting a battle that was lost years ago. 

14 hours ago, pete beadle said:

I won't be doing this test, or taking the course on drones either, I'll simply go flying as usual

If you fly in violation of ANO articles 94D and 94F then you are just the same as somebody who violates article 94(3) when they fly FPV without a spotter or beyond visual range.

14 hours ago, pete beadle said:

My only problem at the moment is where to get 3rd party insurance if the BMFA won't insure me, but I have already spoken to one insurer who would be perfectly happy to insure me

Make sure that your policy has a clause that makes it clear that you are covered for civil claims even if you are violating the ANO.

Steve

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Steve J
4 minutes ago, EssexBOF said:

This response to the Chelmsford MFA secretary

That is Baroness Vere's standard response. Her reply to my MP is almost identical.

Steve

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grj
7 hours ago, Marc Sinclair said:

I guess that is where insurance comes in?  Are all you guys insured against damage and death to yourself/others etc?  I'm not but I should right? Advice is welcome.

7 hours ago, Marc Sinclair said:

How about being legally required to be part of a registered model club which in turn covers insurance and basic flying skills/health and safety etc ? We could pay an annual a fee to join and the extra income would go down well for our clubs/sport/hobby. The government could take there cut of the tax and perhaps a small admin fee from it? 

 

Marc

 

I am a bit confused by these two comments.

Are you not a member of the BMFA? It's a condition of BARCS membership.

If you are then you have insurance and the balance of your fee goes towards the well being of our hobby, though I know some might question the efficacy of this .

If not a BMFA member, please join or pm me or the membership secretary to resolve.

Graham

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