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mikef

F5J scoring - best tactics to maximise your score

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mikef

I had my first concentrated look at an F5J contest at the recent 2 day Interglide event.  I found the scoring system fascinating and started to wonder how I'd approach the 'launch height to go for' vs. 'the chance of finding lift' trade-off.

At first sight, the height scoring system seems to make going over 200 metres a real no-no.  You have 0.5 points deducted for each metre of recorded altitude up to 200 metres and 3 points per metre over 200 metres.  (Is there an absolute height limit - couldn't find one in the rules)

There's one point per second flown in the ten minute working time.  You must start and launch after the start of the slot.  The watch stops at the end of the slot and you have a minute to land after that.  Overflying the 10 minutes loses you a chance at the landing bonus, which is up to 50 points if you model's nose stops within a metre of the spot.  Over-flying the 11 minutes, starting/launching early or landing more than 75 metres from the spot also gets you a zero.

Has anyone seen any analysis that seeks an optimum launch height for a given amount of available lift?

What's a typical sinking speed for an F5J glider?

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EssexBOF

Mike, there is no absolute height limit. If you took the penalty of 100 points up to 200 metres, then added on 300 points for 200-300 metre's, this amounts to 400 points or 6.66 minutes flight time. Not good, although in some conditions going over 200 metre's can be beneficial but in the majority of cases, is a no go. ( most people here set the limiter to 300 meter's , rather than no limit )

What the sinking speed is, I have no idea, but they are in the majority of designs used now, lighter than old F3j designs as the structure can be made lighter, due to the loads imposed during towing are not there.

On the continent launches are usually quite low, as thermal activity is more abundant low down than in the UK

I searched for a low launch video that used to be on the forum, but could not find the one I wanted. This one shows it well but do not think the sharp turn over the launch line would be allowed now 

 

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SilentPilot

What’s with the lawn dart on the preview to that video? It’s over an hour long so I haven’t got time to watch it just yet.

Please tell me that’s not how you “land” 😆

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mikef

There is a landing bonus.  You get 50 points if you are within one meter, dropping in 5 point steps.  So 45 points for 1 to 2 metres - down to 5 points for 9 to 10 metres.  Between 10 and 75 meters is no bonus, over 75 metres scores zero for the flight.  The distance is from the spot to where the nose of the model comes to rest.  You need to allow for a slide on landing or you can use the 'lawn dart' technique and risk the model.  You also need to land before the 10 minute slot ends to get the landing bonus so you might chose to 'dump it' just before the hooter rather than glide in smoothly.

The best pilots seem to hover their model over the spot using variable flaps/airbrakes and then drop down at the last second.

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wixy

Hopefully Peter will publish the full results from IG .

Glider score  program will show every pilots launch height and length of flight (time) 

From this you will be able to Annalise the launch height required to reach a Flyoff possition .

You will be supprised  at how high the average height will be .

G

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mikef

Thanks Wixy.  I'll have my work cut out there with over 400 flights to look at...  Another excuse to not finish the model on the bench!

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pete beadle

Once you do all this analysing it's not really going to help you is it?

Like anything else proved by analysing statistics, it'll only be proving what was best on that day......conditions are going to be different the next time you're at a comp, so what you'll need to do is to analyse ALL the preceding comps, and then to pick what YOU think will work best..........having all that info still won't guarantee success either will it! That's the real pleasure in competitions.....it's still up to you to chose what you think will work! Then go for it and prove it!:thumbsup:

Regards

Pete

BARCS1702

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mikef
1 hour ago, pete beadle said:

Once you do all this analysing it's not really going to help you is it?

I don't know yet.

Before I caught F3K, I was an F1A flyer, on 14 National teams between 1975 and 2006.  I did a lot of thinking there and  made 4 podiums.

About 10 years ago when F3K models came in at about 280- 320 grams, I did an analysis that suggested they ought to be lighter if they could still be made to fly fast when needed without too much loss of height.

Better airfoils came along and now the best models are 210-230 grams...

  • Haha 1

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wixy

By analysing statistics you will gain an insight on performance .

A couple of years ago Pete Allen reached a fly off position in the French Euro tour competition.He was  flying a much heavier model than most other competitors .

When the results of the prelims were published .like a sad git I analized the results off the fly off competitors and was supprised by the height launched by Peter ,who I think qualified for the fliyoff in last place..

To win a Euro tour comp you need to be in the Flyoff , qualifying place dose not matter .

 My take on analysing tells me in F5J it's not always nescerray to launch low .

It's the tactic I used at last week's IG to qualify in 9th position ,and then go all out to win .

Unfortunately I f##### up and came 11 th.

G.

 

 

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Peter

Would have finished much higher in the French Eurotour if my height limiter had not decided to die in the last round and leave a zero score.  B******* Chinese electronics!

Anyhow I did the scoring of the rounds on Pete Ms computer which is back with him now and the fly off on my computer. Just waiting to transfer the files back and forth so we can have a complete record before publication.

In the meantime you can do analysis from this spreadsheet if you wish.   Have fun.

 

Interglide F5J 2019 - Round Scores.xlsx

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Marc Sinclair
5 hours ago, EssexBOF said:

 

 

Amazing clear/quality video that is on a such a lovely day.  Looks fantastic soaring high like seagulls fuelling up. Interesting competition/format this f5j.  Thanks for sharing EssexBOF.  Lovely sailplanes…. Also good to see the younger pilots/kids competing and doing well. 

It does look wrong seeing a one grand plus(?) sailplane nose dive to beat the clock...Brave people. 

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EssexBOF
2 hours ago, Marc Sinclair said:

Amazing clear/quality video that is on a such a lovely day.  Looks fantastic soaring high like seagulls fuelling up. Interesting competition/format this f5j.  Thanks for sharing EssexBOF.  Lovely sailplanes…. Also good to see the younger pilots/kids competing and doing well. 

It does look wrong seeing a one grand plus(?) sailplane nose dive to beat the clock...Brave people. 

I could not find the clip that I wanted to bring up, as it seems to have been wiped off, but was shorter than the one here.

One thing that was missing at the event on the weekend, was timekeepers of the standard in the attached picture from some 6 years ago

BARCS 230image.png.bd2840ff506700864c12841c6aeefe68.png

  • Thanks 1

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Marc Sinclair

Must be hard walking like that 

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Marc Sinclair
Posted (edited)

Misses Timekeeper always did have a rather tight left inner thigh muscle..."

Edited by Marc Sinclair
spelang

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martynk

mmm   I thought that I understood this.

I have converted the glider score spreadsheet (just round 1) to try and work out where points are gained and lost. I assumed that the max score that you could get would be 600 seconds flight plus 50 point landing bonus less the launch penalty - which could possibly be 0 if the pilot simply hand launched and didn't start the motor - Max score of 650. 

I have modified the spreadsheet to show the flight time in seconds and the height penalty as a negative number (with an allowance for a motor cut > 200m) and simply added  those three columns into a new column called total.  However, the position and points don't correlate with the normalised score - which I obviously incorrectly assumed would be normalised around a max score of 650 points. I also expected the total (my column) to show the position is some form of depreciating points score. However, Adrian Gallet (10) scored a higher score that the 5 competitors above him so the normalisation I was working to doesn't seem right.  What have I done wrong?

 

image.thumb.png.78dc7f4ef403daa9a565adb408985aaa.png

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mikef

The contest was run with 6 slots per round.  It's the slot winner who gets 1000.  All 6 slots are displayed together to confuse you.

I wonder if Peter could put the individual slots up separately?  It's only worth doing comparisons within a single slot - a no-lift slot would look different to a slot with an obvious thermal.

you can deduce the slots from the scores - eg 10 th place...

604/.9902= 610 so slot winner was Adnidsson

 

I was editing my original message to put in the calculation when Gem posted the next message - hence the duplication!

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gem

Hi Martyn,

Scoring is done for each individual slot so the normalisation alters each time. Each score, in a give slot, is normalised to the highest score in that slot. This will prevent you being able to calculate a single sheet this way.

The reason Adrian is lower is because his time was “percentage” off a higher winning score in his slot.

You can back calculate his score of 604 and his percentage of 99.03 and find the slot winner’s score was 609.91 (610) so he was in the slot won by Lennart. You’ll find you can back calculate each of the other five to find out their individual slot winners the same way.

Hope this helps, at least a little bit.

regards

             Garry

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wixy

Electric motor must be running before launch .but must not be started before  start of slot time .

To achieve 9m 59 sec you have to be quick and land on buzzer .

G

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martynk
Posted (edited)

Doh.. Of course

Looking rather too deeply

Many thanks

(EDIT: I assume therefore that scores are normalised against the slot winners score - not the max theoretical score)

Edited by martynk
Supplementary question

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SilentPilot

You don't have to hand launch motor off to avoid the launch penalty. As said above it isn't even allowed!

Could you fly off level and stay at 0' to avoid the penalty?

I guess in theory maybe. But if you don't pick up a thermal straight away you're on the floor. If you do pick up a thermal straight away you will likely climb in your 10 second "F5j window" so you'll still get a deduction!

I guess it's not even possible in theory :D

 

 

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