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Nick Jackson

BARCS ELG at the Nationals

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Al Lipscombe

Both on the same day is better, but still not ideal. Also £30 for a days flying does come a tad expensive.

Must make sure I have the facility to change my Height limiter settings.

Al

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Tony

I intend taking my laptop if that helps as I know the keypad doesn't work, apparently, with the latest firmware

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gem
On 31/07/2019 at 15:49, Nick Jackson said:

Arrangements for the Monday have now been re-jigged in response to some of the concerns expressed on this forum and elsewhere. We're going to run the two classes consecutively rather than concurrently: eSoaring will run in the morning, ELG in the afternoon.

We'll fly 4 rounds of each class, with 3 groups per round, which will see ELG finishing no later than 4:00 to 4:30pm - not a lot later than the original arrangement. 

________________________________________________________________________________________________

This change has been made in response to the worries about safety expressed on this forum and elsewhere.  Not everybody on the SFTC / BARCS Committee is convinced that flying eSoaring and ELG from separate flight-lines at the same time would have posed a significantly enhanced risk but we were not going to ignore the serious concerns being expressed by some very experienced and expert fliers. We considered running both classes all day, from separate flight-lines but with staggered launches so that only one class was in the air at any one time. But decided that this was too vulnerable to  the synchronisation going awry and that consecutive 4-round competitions were preferable. A bonus of this approach is that it addresses also the comments made on the forum that the original arrangement was divisive: it's no longer necessary to choose between eSoaring and ELG; you can fly both and I very much hope that people will do so.

It would be surprising if everyone were thrilled by this (or indeed any) arrangement. I'm not wild about it myself: I certainly don't see it as a template for future years and will be pushing for a thorough review of the SF Nats schedule for next year.  But I think it will give a good day's competition and is the best we can do for this year. Adherents of eSoaring and of ELG both get to fly their preferred class at the Nats. Though each class is limited to 4 rounds each will be League-qualifying you can get a very full (though not very cheap!) day's flying by entering both. And - the main point - the safety concerns expressed have now been met.  

It's difficult to know what impact this re-jigging will have on entry numbers. Anyone previously planning to stay away because of safety worries can now sign up to fly.  ELG in the afternoon is inevitably vulnerable to people wanting to set off home early but the finish will not be abnormally late and you've the opportunity to fly in the first ever ELG at the Nats (and for a splendid trophy - details to follow). Please get signed up quickly so we can be sure we've viable numbers in ELG. Anyone who's signed up already but doesn't want to fly under the new arrangements will be refunded (PM me).  Cost remains £15 per class but bear in mind any surplus will be contributing to team travel costs.

 

Hi Nick 

do we know what time the Esoaring is going to start? I would be travelling on the day so need to know just how early I would need to set off if I’m to enter. 

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Nick Jackson

Hi Garry,

I've been in correspondence with Mike Proctor (who is running eSoaring in the morning). Subject to confirmation, 1pm start for ELG - with pilots' briefing at 12-30 or as soon as possible thereafter.  I would like to get the flying started at 1pm pretty promptly to finish at 4pm..

 

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Nick Jackson

A couple of updates:

  • Launch height: in the interests of safety and of minimising AMRT changes, launch height for ELG at the Nats will be 175m, the same height as the eSoaring comp in the morning. (I've been in touch with Mike Proctor, CD for eSoaring, and unless anything extraordinary and unexpected crops up we've agreed 175m for both comps so there will be no need to adjust AMRTs between the morning and afternoon sessions on the Monday).
     
  • Trophy: this is the trophy which (after some re-engraving) BARCS  will be awarding to the winner of  ELG at the Nats:

    image.thumb.png.c61b3e07ddb21553d837cb40c2223297.png

 

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Nick Jackson

BARCS ELG at the SF Nats afternoon of Mon 26 August - registration closes Mon 19 Aug, don't miss out.

Good forecast, 14 fliers signed up so far. Plenty of room for more but if you want to join us you need to sign up by tomorrow.

 

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wixy

So does anyone know what the entry is ,and is it  worth staying for ?????????????

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Mike

At least 15 I think...

Mike.

(Dunno about esoaring...)

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Nick Jackson

16 registered for ELG by close of play yesterday. eSoaring in the morning slot has about 20. So both will be going ahead.

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wixy

9 for 100" 

12 2mtr e soaring

10 F3K

31 F5J

20 Esoaring

just hope some lessons are learnt  regards scheduling .

G

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ThermalBoy
2 hours ago, wixy said:

9 for 100" 

12 2mtr e soaring

10 F3K

31 F5J

20 Esoaring

just hope some lessons are learnt  regards scheduling .

G

Agree with everything Graham has said.  Its also unfortunate that BARCS ELG is scheduled for Monday afternoon rather than the morning. Had it not been, I feel sure there would have been a lot more entries.

C

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Nick Jackson

Clearly the morning is the top slot on Monday and perfectly understandable that eSoaring aficionados wanted to bag it - eSoaring is a current BMFA class and BARCS ELG is there as a guest.

For me, the lesson about scheduling is that it needs to be thought through carefully, openly, and in good time. There are a number of perfectly reasonable views and interests in play here rather than any single and obviously-optimal solution. But that's for after the upcoming Nats - let's enjoy them!

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Nick Jackson

Draw for ELG at the Nats attached in case anyone wants it in advance (there will be the usual score cards on the day). I've put in a couple of Spares in case anyone not yet registered decides they want to stay on for the afternoon's flying.

 

sf nats elg draw.pdf

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Nick Jackson

380889292_PHOTO-2019-08-26-16-54-233.thumb.jpg.e021e2f4d8ae2cb78831bdfe3b50af7a.jpg1196017046_PHOTO-2019-08-26-16-54-232.thumb.jpg.4b7943a3acd22ad1e5c625bc1ad64da3.jpg1596636230_PHOTO-2019-08-26-16-54-231.thumb.jpg.a307c68e6651368d8d29ccaae70da9d0.jpgPHOTO-2019-08-26-16-54-23.thumb.jpg.21978709537b152e28e786147a67eff4.jpg

A great bunch of lads - presentations for the  BARCS ELG flown as a guest class at the SF Nats Mon 26 Aug.

  1. Winner Peter Allen receiving the Chris Moynihan memorial trophy for the event.
  2. Second place went to Mike Raybone
  3. Al Lipscombe third
  4. Ian Duff in 4th place.

Congratulations to all these top flyers for their impressive flying inoften-challenging conditions. And thanks again to the BMFA for inviting us to guest at the Nats.

Results are attached below. (The mysterious 'Spare 1' is Bob Dickenson, who gives below some thought-provoking views on flying multiple electric glider classes to slightly different rules.)

barcs elg at nats landing results.pdfbarcs elg at nats flight scores.pdf

barcs elg at nats overall results.pdf

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Bob Dickenson

Having flown in F5J yesterday, followed by e soaring & ELG today, I have come to the following conclusion :- we need to get our act together. ELG is close enough to F5J so as to fully adopt F5J rules ( international, not UK variants} E Soaring, I realise was concocted as an entry level class for people new to the sport. I appreciate the aim but I believe it has become an extra class to allow  experienced flyers to get more flying in. I think that we should all stick only to F5J rules for all our comps. There is still room for that one lucky slot for any competitor to win which will give them something to keep them going for another year.

  For those who think that motor restart should be allowed :- we are flying gliders, the motor is only there to provide a launch. Allowing motor restart changes the tactics of the competition entirely. Pure gliders that we used to fly had no motor.

  Hopefully I have not trodden on too many toes.

  Bob

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EssexBOF
16 hours ago, Bob Dickenson said:

Having flown in F5J yesterday, followed by e soaring & ELG today, I have come to the following conclusion :- we need to get our act together. ELG is close enough to F5J so as to fully adopt F5J rules ( international, not UK variants} E Soaring, I realise was concocted as an entry level class for people new to the sport. I appreciate the aim but I believe it has become an extra class to allow  experienced flyers to get more flying in. I think that we should all stick only to F5J rules for all our comps. There is still room for that one lucky slot for any competitor to win which will give them something to keep them going for another year.

  For those who think that motor restart should be allowed :- we are flying gliders, the motor is only there to provide a launch. Allowing motor restart changes the tactics of the competition entirely. Pure gliders that we used to fly had no motor.

  Hopefully I have not trodden on too many toes.

  Bob

Just to correct some of your observations, Bob.

E Soaring was the original type of event before F5j came about, as most taking part now, were then flying F3j,circa 2007. Having flown in this event from it's inception, when the height limiter came into play from 2008, I introduced Bartletts rules which have now morphed into what is now known as ELG. As you say there is only a cigarette paper between it and F5j.( the differences being (1) Relaunch allowed and (2) No height penalty, unless exceeding the limit set for the comp, then it is as for F5j 3 points per metre, in excess of mandated height.

We down in the South wanted the fixed 10 minute slot, rather than the 11 minute slot, to complete a 10 minute flight. Also the 10% allowance on the max height limit, left a quite an advantage, especially as it was seldom checked from what I saw, at comps.

When I gave up running Bartletts events in 2015, Pete Mitchell then introduced, the readable max height limit on the day with the 3 second penalty, plus you could re launch once if desired, but first attempt scored zero.

As to restart, I think this is a sensible choice as to saving the the model, plus possible injury  and damage to persons and or property, which in today's regulated environment would not go down well. Just supposing it was reversed and electric launched gliders had preempted Open F3j  type models, I think the majority would prefer the ability to save the model , but get a zero score

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Peter

BARCS have had an electric launched soaring class for at least 30 years called variously Electroslot, Self Launching Glider (SLG)  and now Electric Launched Glider (ELG). The launching rules have changed as battery and motor technology have developed but they all shared basically the same flying rules based on the tried and trusted BARCS Open class rules of flying in groups with a 10 minute slot time, a percentage slot scoring system and a 50 point landing bonus. 

These rules also form the basis for the international classes of F3J and now F5J but these classes have now been made stricter and more difficult because of the high calibre and competitive nature of the pilots participating  from all over the world.

Anything class with a F in front is bound to be rightly perceived by a newcomer as difficult and probably expensive. A electric class based on BARCS Open rules takes away the need to guess the launch height, permits re-launches and allows for single or double entries with 2m models (foamies?) or 100" (2.6m?) competing against the bigger models but with a class win as a prize so serves as an excellent introduction to a new entrant before they need to lash out loads of dosh.

A looks at the participants of the Bartletts league and the Kent leagues shows the names of many old (sometimes very old!) BARCS stalwarts but also many relative newcomers who wouldn't dream of jumping straight into a full blown F5J competition. 

Of course a National Championship will attract the best pilots from all around the country, that is what a National Championship is meant to do,  but there are many local and regional competitions where the standards vary enormously and everyone stands a chance of doing well. 

Personally I agree with Bob that motor re-starts should not be permitted in F5J as that is what is written in the international rules and we should fly our competitions to those rules as closely as possible. However ELG is a domestic class and therefore a different matter as many of our flying fields are small and close to urban areas so safety and avoiding crashing a model is the most important factor.

 

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