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paul garnett

FIA ruling on reflights

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abbof3f

Just a thought i have had for a while about f3f .....what do you think about flying 20/30  legs instead of 10???? ..would be interesting to see what differences this would make to average air !Also giving the pilot more time and the use of skill to "feel whats going on in his slot " just an idea that could change so much or would it be just the same as for 10 legs !

 

 

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Peter G

The only change in the rules as far as I can see is that a pilot 'must' be given a reflight as opposed to previously being 'entitled' to a reflight when;

a)the wind speed is below three (3)m/sec or more than twenty five (25)m/sec for at least twenty (20)secondstwo (2) metres above the ground at the flight-line.

b)the direction of the wind constantly deviates more than 45 degrees from a line perpendicularto the main direction of the speed course.

c)In the case of rain.

I don't really know what I think about the why and wherefore, but I know I would be gutted if my good flight in a thermal was chopped off. This is of course far more likely on very marginal days so I can see why the rule was introduced.

However, we need to apply the rules and get used to it. The biggest effect I see it having is that it makes the CD's job even more difficult as there is bound to be alot of dissapointment for the pilot. This puts more onus on the measuring equipment to make the CD's job as easy and consistent as possible and we (GBSRA) definately need to invest in a wind meter that can be mounted at 2m remote from the CD position if necessary with a clear remote read out. The rule says below 3ms for at least 20s so I'm not sure whether an average over 30s is good for this? An audible alarm below 3ms or 45 degrees off would be useful and then the CD could be monitoring it closely.

It is probably possible with the right equipment / software to get this fully automated and the timing gear tells you when you have a reflight. I suppose this would be the ideal, it would be more difficult to get annoyed with a tablet than a person!

I hadn't noted that rain is also included now... I can think of a few quick flights this year that might have been chopped off if that were applied!

It was also tricky at the cliff in Eastbourne as the CD was sitting in rotor and a hand held meter that could be seen would have been giving a totally wrong reading. So lets spend some GBSRA cash and make the CD's job easier ASAP.

I had a good look about last night and the best looking device I could see was this one - Navis Wireless Windy B Cup Anemometer Wind Direction by Smartphone Connection - https://ebay.us/DFmY4L

Mark T & Jon will undooubtedly be in the best position to know if the specs. are what we need and whether it could be integrated with the timing gear.

 

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Sloper
1 hour ago, Peter G said:

 

a)the wind speed is below three (3)m/sec or more than twenty five (25)m/sec for at least twenty (20)secondstwo (2) metres above the ground at the flight-line.

 

 

Other than height, i can not find any specific ruling on position of the apparatus (what is considered the flight line?), which i find odd considering how crucial the consequences of the readings are.

Even though we tend to try measure whats happening directly on the edge, to me i feel that is the wrong position, the readings can contradict what is actual being experienced in the flight and what you can feel the wind doing further back off the edge. Ive only done one international competition outside the UK and the position of the wind measuring was behind the front safety line, inline with the bases, also so was race control, 

F3F Flying Field Layout.png

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Brett82
2 hours ago, Peter G said:

a)the wind speed is below three (3)m/sec or more than twenty five (25)m/sec for at least twenty (20)secondstwo (2) metres above the ground at the flight-line.

b)the direction of the wind constantly deviates more than 45 degrees from a line perpendicularto the main direction of the speed course.

c)In the case of rain.

What about direction, is that an average over 20 seconds? if its over 45 degrees for 18 seconds, then flicks back on the slope for 2 seconds, then goes back off the slope for another 18 seconds, would that be considered legal?

2 hours ago, Peter G said:

I hadn't noted that rain is also included now... I can think of a few quick flights this year that might have been chopped off if that were applied!

Dont worry Pete, it doesnt say anything about hail... 🤣, otherwise it may have been a bigger gap.

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Les
5 hours ago, abbof3f said:

Just a thought i have had for a while about f3f .....what do you think about flying 20/30  legs instead of 10???? ..would be interesting to see what differences this would make to average air !Also giving the pilot more time and the use of skill to "feel whats going on in his slot " just an idea that could change so much or would it be just the same as for 10 legs !

 

 

My brains frazzled after 10 id be well shot doing 20/30 legs a round. 

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Peter G
3 hours ago, Sloper said:

Other than height, i can not find any specific ruling on position of the apparatus (what is considered the flight line?), which i find odd considering how crucial the consequences of the readings are.

Even though we tend to try measure whats happening directly on the edge, to me i feel that is the wrong position, the readings can contradict what is actual being experienced in the flight and what you can feel the wind doing further back off the edge. Ive only done one international competition outside the UK and the position of the wind measuring was behind the front safety line, inline with the bases, also so was race control,

I reckon away from the edge would be better on most slopes as the direction is probably straightened up if there is any compression. But on a cliff it might need to be close to the edge, to one side of the pilot maybe. We will just have to pre-warn JP that if he hits it, he's paying for it 😉 If we get the remote meter sorted, it can be placed somewhere sensible depending on the slope.

2 hours ago, Brett82 said:

What about direction, is that an average over 20 seconds? if its over 45 degrees for 18 seconds, then flicks back on the slope for 2 seconds, then goes back off the slope for another 18 seconds, would that be considered legal?

Interesting question Brett, 'constantly deviates more than 45 degrees' would suggest to me it would have to be the whole timed flight. But that would seem pretty cruel if it flicks in for 1s during a 71s run! I don't know how this one is being interpreted.

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Brett82
5 hours ago, Peter G said:

I had a good look about last night and the best looking device I could see was this one - Navis Wireless Windy B Cup Anemometer Wind Direction by Smartphone Connection - https://ebay.us/DFmY4L

Mark T & Jon will undooubtedly be in the best position to know if the specs. are what we need and whether it could be integrated with the timing gear.

Hi Pete

Just be careful with this one. Mark will need to have a good look at it before anyone spends any hard earned cash. If Mark can come up with a way to not use the app its degned to connect to it may be fine.... but... if not, and we need to use the app it connects to it wont work for us. The average time can only be set to record over a rolling 1 min, 3 min's or 10 mins. It cannot be set to 20 seconds. 

Maybe he can get it to talk to his race manager app and set the average rolling time to what ever he wishes. If he only needs a standard output than one of these would work.

https://weinasa.en.alibaba.com/product/62040232872-807301649/Veinasa_FXS_Factory_Price_Laboratory_Industrial_Agro_Intelligent_Anemometer_Speed_Sensor_Turbine_Speed_Sensor_Outdoor_Anemometer.html

 

Or even better an Ultrasonic Anemometer with no moving parts, but only using RS485 output.

https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Veinasa-CXS01-Mini-Weather-Station-Ultrasonic_60788620158.html

Brett

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Peter G

Quite right. I have no idea what output it would need etc.

They can be really expensive though! Well over £1k so when I found one for much less I thought, that looks OK.

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prondel

Hi all,

I'm very confused by the discussion and try to understand first where is coming from this new rule stating that the reflight is now mandatory since the beginning of the year.

I just looked at the CIAM website, section sporting code

https://www.fai.org/page/ciam-code

F3 soaring code: https://www.fai.org/sites/default/files/documents/sc4_vol_f3_soaring_19.pdf

The rule (5.8.17. Weather Conditions and interruptions) is saying:

"If these conditions arise during the flight the contest director must interrupt the contest and the competitor is entitled to a re-flight."

The word "ENTITLED" is still used, so I'm totally lost !

I was also surprised at La Muela when during the briefing the CD told us about this rule. It was presented as a new 2019 rule, but in this document all changes are flagged with a double bar on the right side of the page, and there is nothing for the section 5.8.17

I did the exercise to look at every year rule and the last change of this particular section was end of 2016, applicable from the 1st of January 2017. I have attached section of each document so you can see by yourself.

The wording changed from:    "If these conditions arise during the flight the competitor is entitled to a re-flight."

to: "If these conditions arise during the flight the contest director must interrupt the contest and the competitor is entitled to a re-flight."

So first question about interpretation is about the second sentence:  contest must be interrupted and the competitor is entitled to a re-flight. It doesn't say "competitor HAS to re-flight". Personally all interpretation are possible like: the DC can interrupt the contest after the pilot declined the reflight and finish his flight...

Second point: Since this change has been introduced january 2017, and if the meaning of the wording is that re-flight is mandatory, then many FAI contests were illegal proposing the re-flight instead of imposing it ! ...

There are many points in the F3F rules that are opened to interpretation, the most famous one was in 2000 when the VKR organiser started to apply the joker at round 4, and not after round 4.

Maybe I missed something ...

Thanks in advance for any explanation, clarification, feedbacks :)

Cheers,

Pierre

2016.png

2017.png

2018.png

2019.png

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mark_r

Thanks for posting the wording Pierre - it hasn't really changed has it.

The words also make sense in the context of persistent adverse conditions where a pilot would be disadvantaged. (Which seems to be what this section of the rules is about). It looks reasonable to assume that a reflight would not be mandated where thermals are concerned (and in any case, as you point out, the word is 'entitled'.)

It would still be helpful to understand the original intention behind the revised wording as there is clearly scope for differing interpretation.

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prondel

😂

trump.png

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Peter G

Haha 😁 Fake news!

Dave Rumble & Les will be pleased 😟

Interesting, I read it and accepted that it had changed, although it was clearly two years ago.

If you take the first part in isolation it does (possibly) have a different meaning:

"If these conditions arise during the flight, the contest must be interrupted"

The interpretation being used in the UK this year is the contest must be interrupted straight away (when the conditions arise) and the pilot is entitled to a reflight.

I can see now that the exact time of interruption is not clear, so it could be at the end of the flight, and the reflight offered as an option. As it was before.

 

 

 

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prondel
4 minutes ago, Peter G said:

If you take the first part in isolation it does (possibly) have a different meaning:

"If these conditions arise during the flight, the contest must be interrupted"

The interpretation being used in the UK this year is the contest must be interrupted straight away (when the conditions arise) and the pilot is entitled to a reflight.

I can see now that the exact time of interruption is not clear, so it could be at the end of the flight, and the reflight offered as an option. As it was before.

Exactly, this is the point !

Ultimately, interpretations of the rules can lead to 2 different contest result :( !

Perfect rule should not let any place to interpretation from my point of view.

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Skip
19 minutes ago, prondel said:

Perfect rule should not let any place to interpretation from my point of view.

Exactly!

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oipigface

I was going to contribute to this conversation, but now that Pierre has revealed the whole thing as a (Spanish?) plot, it hardly seems necessary. The first I heard of the supposed revised rule was at La Muela, where it was definitely introduced at the briefing as a new FAI requirement. If it is indeed the case that it is fake news, are contests that have been run applying it still valid?

Despite all of that, I still think the idea of upgrading our wind measuring equipment is a good one.

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Sloper
2 minutes ago, oipigface said:

If it is indeed the case that it is fake news, are contests that have been run applying it still valid?

Oh now that will be an interesting senario😱

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oipigface

I guess that domestic comps will be OK, but La Muela 2019, and HoH 2019 were both run under the ‘new rule’. Norway wasn’t. I don't know about any others. 

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Les
9 minutes ago, oipigface said:

I guess that domestic comps will be OK, but La Muela 2019, and HoH 2019 were both run under the ‘new rule’. Norway wasn’t. I don't know about any others. 

I thought this rule was implemented by the FIA so how could it be fake news?

Don't comp organisers get new rules and updates?

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Peter G

It's about how you read it Les. And I think there are definately two (plausible/valid?) ways of reading it. They read it differently at La Muela and it was taken forward in the UK.

As such, I don't think any comps would be scrubbed (hope not anyway!).

It's definately one for the technical representatives to bring up (at CIAM?) though, the rule does need clarification. As there was apparently no intention to change the rule for mandatory reflights I suspect it will go back to how it was before i.e. you will be offered a reflight after your flight if the conditions deteriorate. But I suppose thats up to our CD's until its calrified in the rules.

Well done to Pengy for bringing this up!

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Les
8 minutes ago, Peter G said:

It's about how you read it Les. And I think there are definately two (plausible/valid?) ways of reading it. They read it differently at La Muela and it was taken forward in the UK.

As such, I don't think any comps would be scrubbed (hope not anyway!).

It's definately one for the technical representatives to bring up (at CIAM?) though, the rule does need clarification. As there was apparently no intention to change the rule for mandatory reflights I suspect it will go back to how it was before i.e. you will be offered a reflight after your flight if the conditions deteriorate. But I suppose thats up to our CD's until its calrified in the rules.

Well done to Pengy for bringing this up!

Cheers Peter

I hope it dose not effect the result because you really deserve this win .

It's a matter to be cleared up for the next comps.

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