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Tony

2nd hand market, in general

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pete beadle

Hi Tony

Yes, a Cassiopea, I had one years ago, sported little winglets on the tip panels.....I think Chris Foss had a hand in them before he started importing  Starlights......enough history? I've got a couple of similar projects in the loft.....a Muller Escape and another Pike come to mind......how did the chap finally come to the price of £40.00 though, I wonder.....questions questions........

Not worried in the slightest what it is? I'll stop bothering you about it then

Regards

Pete

BARCS1702

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Tony

Nice Alpina going on e bay

Pete, the written word can and is often misread I am interested but not to the point of distraction. I should be picking her up some time next week

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Tony

The eagle has landed and the mystery model is safe and well but lots of questions and advice please. Thank you for those that commented on my build qualities. I say this because this model is a master class, she's old now but in cracking nick so when she was first built she must have been brilliant.

Here's what I know so far. Bought a couple of years ago in the Northampton area the builder may be deceased but flew in competitions.

The fuselage is in perfect nick there's not a scratch on her suggesting she's only flown on grass. Looks definitely like an Algebra, Sean's, fuselage. Wing inners are fully sheeted tapered spruce spars covered in glass. Spoilers must have been used at one time, not sure why the weird splicing of sheet is it doesn't make much sense, spoilers are glassed over so not in use. Cable/cord operated if you look at the wing route. Outer wings fully sheeted with what looks like silk covering. Covering material is the same at the elevators, I can't be sure what it is but I'll get the iron on it at a low temp just to make sure it's isn't or is solartex. I say that as it's very smooth with a very minute texture, it might have been rubbed down? I'll let everyone have a good butchers at the pics as I have a few questions (More than a few!). The flaps are pure genius.

 

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Tony

More

 

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Marc RC pilot

Wow, built with love and care Tony. Looks a cracker m8

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Marc RC pilot

Trying to figure out how those flaps work....Build quality with various strengthened crossed grained areas/trailing edge harder wood(?) etc  is quite something...A pro builder it seems as well

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Tony

Cheers bud.

Unfortunately it didn't come with wing joiners but the root ribs are canted so I should get a rough estimation of what I need. 

Looking at her there's 3 joiners, typical of this type of build. The ones that are present, shown in the last 5 pics look like locating pins if pushed all the way in. I think these are wrong as it should be a full length wire? Hence me pulling them out and showing them for a bit of clarity.

The more I look at the fuselage layout, lack of joiners and looking at the condition of the fuselage wing roots I'm not sure if the fuselage build is complete. Maybe this was a new fuselage to replace a damaged one? I might be completely wrong but there's nothing inside to beef the root up normally there'd be a 1/8" ply inner facing. Thoughts/suggestions please?

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Tony
3 minutes ago, MMD said:

Trying to figure out how those flaps work....Build quality with various strengthened crossed grained areas/trailing edge harder wood(?) etc  is quite something...A pro builder it seems as well

The flaps work, I've not put anything together yet, by the hexagonal wire moving the hexagonal tube in the flap root. I have a foam FPV plane that the ailerons and v tail work in a similar fashion.

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PeteMitchell

Others will no doubt know better,  but I recall that the wing joiner rods were straight. At least  they were untill the model had a sudden arrival. The  joiner tubes in the wing root are built in at an angle to give the required dihedral.

The pop up airbrakes did not slow the model for acurate landings, and many tried  some sort of flapsas per your model in an attempt to slow it down.

The fixed wire pin at the trailing edge of the  wing root is a locating pin to ensure correct  wing alignment.

Many built this model without a wing joiner tube in the fus.

Hope that helps Tony.

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Tony
36 minutes ago, PeteMitchell said:

Others will no doubt know better,  but I recall that the wing joiner rods were straight. At least  they were untill the model had a sudden arrival. The  joiner tubes in the wing root are built in at an angle to give the required dihedral.  I haven't checked to see if this is so I  presumed that they may have been bent . I will go and check

The pop up airbrakes did not slow the model for acurate landings, and many tried  some sort of flapsas per your model in an attempt to slow it down. I have seen this  sort of set up before many moons ago

The fixed wire pin at the trailing edge of the  wing root is a locating pin to ensure correct  wing alignment. The fixed pin is the flap actuating rod, for want of a better word! The joiner tube nearest the TE has a loose length of piano wire as per the pic, normally these if used a a locating pin would be fixed?

Many built this model without a wing joiner tube in the fus. Do you recognise the model Pete I hope so as any details would be very appreciated

Hope that helps Tony.

Hi Pete

Hopefully you can help some more?

Again without sticking a hole in the inner wing it looks like a built up wing looking at the TE and the full sheeting and the spar BUT the front and middle joiner box are the same as used on foam models of the period so this build now looks a bit more complex and also a lot of care went into building them.

The wing section does have undercamber so possibly 7037, E193 maybe?

Tony

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Gary B

Hi Tony,

The wing looks very much like a Chris Foss Hi-Phase, from memory the root chord is 10.5". I have two sets in the loft, could confirm.

The fin also looks like a Hi-Phase though it usually has a T tail, later Hi-Phase fuselages are two piece with a joint in the rear fuselage.

 Cheers

      Gary

Root diagram:

936406883_Hi-Phasefoamwingroot.JPG.e68db1615829b04a07558cb695051bc4.JPG

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Tony

Similarities yes Gary all the things are there but in different order! I'll take some accurate measurements etc tomorrow and see if I have some right size wire

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pete beadle

Hi Tony

Right, some pros and some cons

First of all though, is the tailplane fairing part of the fuselage moulding or are the fairings  balsa/ply glued on to the fin sides? - that's important

The wing roots/joiner positions on your pics are definitely not those of a Hi-Phase 

The Algebra 8 had a bellcrank at the base of the fin with a long pushrod inside the fin moulding that terminated near the top of the fin, usually fitted with a helicopter style link to reduce slop, but the main difference from the Hi-Phase was that the roots of the tailplane halves were shaped to fit closely with the curved sides of the top of the fin, the Hi-Phase roots were parallel to the flat fin sides. On the "8" the tailplane pivoted on a wire fixed through the fin at  roughly 50 % of the root chord, and a short wire set into the leading edge of the elevator halves connected to the top of the vertical elevator pushrod......where the pushrod joined the front tailplane joiner there was a curved slot filed into the top of the fin to suit the curve of the joiners travel

The Algebra 8 had a canopy airbrake that nobody likes except Sean himself as, when it popped up, it blanked the fin/rudder - his F3B "8" had ailerons which weren't

The Hi-Phase wing was only part-sheeted on the built-up version, the "8" was fully balsa sheeted or was foam/veneer in the later R/E version

I think that's enough to be going on with, and I need my sleep! So, goodnight all

Regards

Pete

BARCS1702  

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Tony
22 hours ago, pete beadle said:

Hi Tony

Right, some pros and some cons

First of all though, is the tailplane fairing part of the fuselage moulding or are the fairings  balsa/ply glued on to the fin sides? - that's important - WOOD. TAILPLANE CONSTRUCTION IS EXACTLY SAME AS HALCYON PLAN I GAVE YOU EXCEPT THE INNER BLOCK SHEET AND ROOT RIB ARE SANDED TO SECTION. SURPRISED AT THIS CONSIDERING THE REST OF THE BUILD. EXTREMELY LIGHT SUGGESTING V. GOOD BALSA. SECTION AT ROOT IS SIMILAR TO EMP ALGEBRA IE 60/40 CAMBER-THICKNESS

The wing roots/joiner positions on your pics are definitely not those of a Hi-Phase 

The Algebra 8 had a bellcrank at the base of the fin with a long pushrod inside the fin moulding that terminated near the top of the fin, usually fitted with a helicopter style link to reduce slop, but the main difference from the Hi-Phase was that the roots of the tailplane halves were shaped to fit closely with the curved sides of the top of the fin, the Hi-Phase roots were parallel to the flat fin sides. On the "8" the tailplane pivoted on a wire fixed through the fin at  roughly 50 % of the root chord, and a short wire set into the leading edge of the elevator halves connected to the top of the vertical elevator pushrod......where the pushrod joined the front tailplane joiner there was a curved slot filed into the top of the fin to suit the curve of the joiners travel NOT SURE ON ANY OF THAT. CLOSED LOOP FOR RUDDER AND A VERY LONG ALUMINIUM TUBE FOR ALL MOVING ELEVATOR. RUDDER IS ATTACHED BY LONG DOUBLE THREADED ROD WITH RETAINING NUT TOP AND BOTTOM

The Algebra 8 had a canopy airbrake that nobody likes except Sean himself as, when it popped up, it blanked the fin/rudder - his F3B "8" had ailerons which weren't

The Hi-Phase wing was only part-sheeted on the built-up version, the "8" was fully balsa sheeted or was foam/veneer in the later R/E version  BOTH INNER AND OUTER APPEAR TO BE  obechi  OVER FOAM WITH BALSA L.E. AND T.E. BUT LATTER HAS 1/8" SPRUCE SANDED TO POINT. SPRUCE TAPERED SPARS LET IN TOP AND BOTTOM FOR INNER PANEL. I PRESUME SAME FOR OUTER BUT THEY ARE COVERED IN SOME SORT OF COVERING TBA. INNER IS GLASS COVERED CANNOT CONFIRM OUTER. BOTH VERY STIFF AND NOT LIGHT BUT NOT HEAVY IF THAT MAKES SENSE, MORE OF A BUILT TO HANDLE COMP FLYING ROUGH AND TUMBLES.

I think that's enough to be going on with, and I need my sleep! So, goodnight all

Regards

Pete

BARCS1702  

More pics to answer Gary and Pete. Total span including fuselage is 131 1/2".

 

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Tony

Does anyone know where i can get piano wire wing joiners in 3 and 6 SWG? 

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pete beadle

Hi Tony

So, the fuselage is definitely off an Algebra 8, the tailplane fairings are an addition so (I'm guessing here) the builder didn't have to make the  swept"T" tail that the Algebra 8 R/E had:yes:

It's the wings that are the problem now, it looks like the two joiners are there to accomodate the brake actuator wire (the Hi-Phase has three wing joiners, the Algebra 8 has two) where the third, rearmost, joiner would be on the Hi-Phase.......SO they could be Hi-Phase root panels modified to take the T/E brakes and a pair of tips off something else.......... the swept back tips are not a design feature of the Hi-Phase or the Algebra

My best guess then is it's a bitsa based on an Algebra 8 fuselage, possibly modified Hi-Phase root panels, and a pair of tips he had going spare and didn't realist the tip roots were swept back until be stuck them on and saw they were!:(

If I were you I'd get the CG to 40% of the root rib and have some of the nose-weight removable before you chuck it off a hill.......

Good luck mate!:)

Regards

Pete

BARCS1702

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Tony

Cheers Pete.

She looks great in a mock up I just need to source some wing joiners as I'm pretty sure more local shop won't have them but I'll pop in and see tomorrow. I've yours and my Algebra to sort out as well. I think the Algebra can go on hold another week or so, so that's the Eliminator  and this to get ready. I'll put her through sail calc and see where the CG brings me but I'm sure you know it takes quite a few measurements to get there and sailc calc isn't perfect. So as the saying goes, watch this space for future developments!

Tony

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pete beadle

Hi Tony

Many years ago I bought some piano wire from a music shop......they didn't understand 6SWG and the shop assistant used a digital vernier caliper to measure my sample wire......Lord only knows what he used that for in a music shop......have you got any music shops near you?.......they may not have it in stock but I'm sure they'll tell you where they get their wire from

Alternatively, haven't you got any clubmates locally that might have an offcut?

Regards

Pete

BARCS1702 

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Tony

Steve the local shop owner is also the club's treasurer or some other capacity so I'm hoping I can source some from somewhere

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Marc RC pilot

A real oldie: Sean Bannister EMP Algebra 2.5m v tail original rc glider sloap soarer on Ebay

 

 

ALgebra oldie.jpg

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