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  • Sydney Lenssen

    WITH RELUCTANCE AND SADNESS

    With great regret, the BARCS Committee has to announce that they will not be organising any F3J league competitions this year and are unlikely to start again until further interest in participation emerges.

    This means that F3J will not be held at RadioGlide, the BMFA Nationals and other venues which had been announced on the Forum. Some contests to be run at RadioGlide and the Nationals will be rescheduled and provide alternative opportunities to compete.

    Your committee circulated a question to some 40 pilots who fly F3J:  “Do you intend to enter any F3J competitions this year?” Replies were received from 19 pilots within 24 hours. Seven members replied positively: Yes. Another replied: Perhaps. Others said: No.

    Your committee had stated in the questionnaire that it believed that a minimum of 12 pilots was required to run contests which form the basis of awarding UK team places for the World Championships next year 2018. Some positive replies noted that they believed that at least 16 pilots was a minimum, probably more realistic.

    No F3J pilot who has competed over recent years would want to see this form of competition shrivelling and dying a slow death, especially in the country which provided the original thinking to and established F3J as a recognised FAI activity. Hence the decision to stop. Sorry.



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    Whitmore

    Posted

    2 hours ago, isoaritfirst said:

    There is little point trying to develop a class for low cost models. 

    Who would travel typically 150 to 300 miles to fly an easy glider. 

    Competition flying at anything other than club level is expensive. 

    Well F3-RES is finally kicking off in a big way in the USA with some top pilots getting involved, competitions being arranged and a lot of builds in progress. As a young, skint, but keen modeller the class appeals to me. Unfortunately efforts to promote interest in it here seem to have been met with a universal "meh"... I fear we've missed the boat on this one.

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    isoaritfirst

    Posted

    The problem with competition is you need lots of competitors. = large catchment area

    If its kept local in an effort to keep cost down then the pecking order is very quickly found and pilots at each end of the order get fed up.

    There may be some level of solution in Club one model comps.

    Many years ago my local club bought 15 sonatas, we all went away and built them over a winter, then had a number of comps through the year, culminating in a F3f race, just to finish them off....

    Great fun - not sustainable, but will work for a year and may just be enough to make pilots start to enjoy competition and go looking for more.

    Clubs which see themselves very much as power clubs could easily use this type of approach to develop different skills etc.

    Bungey launch thermal comps, cross country, speed.

     

    Limbo , spot landing, timed flight etc etc

    Whitmore - I would suggest that you find a local club and develop interest there. 

     

     

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    martynk

    Posted

    32 minutes ago, Whitmore said:

    Well F3-RES is finally kicking off in a big way in the USA with some top pilots getting involved, competitions being arranged and a lot of builds in progress. As a young, skint, but keen modeller the class appeals to me. Unfortunately efforts to promote interest in it here seem to have been met with a universal "meh"... I fear we've missed the boat on this one.

    I think that part of the problem is we are trying to "sell" a solution to the wrong customers. People on this forum already have well established class interests and apparently due to the decline of 'F3' classes are moving quickly to the comparable 'F5' series classes. Unless there is a compelling reason to build or buy a model for a new class then people simply wont do it. One of the attractions (to me) of F3-RES is that there is no requirement for a manual tow or a powered winch - reasons quoted above for the decline of F3J.

    As an outsider, I find the F3-RES class quite enthralling, its cheap to get into yet difficult enough to be challenging, I can set up and be flying much faster than setting up and flying a power model.  I can fly it in a comparatively small field and I can fly (competitively) at almost any time. What is there not to like about that?

    I don't think we have missed the boat - that will wait as long as needed, we are simply not on the right jetty.

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    Nicholls

    Posted (edited)

    No F3J competitions this year!

    Instead of selling the models and winches why not head down with them to Kent, the Garden of England, and enjoy 5 competitions this year organised by members of Kent Interclub

     April 23rd Glider 1, at SADMAC field Sittingbourne

    June 4th Glider 2, at Invicta Model Flyers Club field Sutton Valence

    July 9th Glider 3, at Tonbridge Radio Flyers field Tonbridge (edited 02042017)

    August 20th  Glider 4, at Invicta Model Flyers Club field Sutton Valence

    October 8th Kent Cup at Tonbridge RF field Tonbridge (edited 02042017)

    These competitions are for both Kent Interclub members and non members for fee of £5.

    BARCS Multilaunch* rules apply (we have used the Multilaunch format since 2013)

    We would love to see you.

    More details will be put on BARCS Forums

    * The reports of my death have been greatly exaggerated!

    22nd April 2017 The entry closed last evening with 19 flyers going to take part in forecast winds of 6-9mph.

     

    Edited by Nicholls
    Updated Entry
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    Having never been involved with any glider contests I may be saying the wrong thing  however  

     

    Can I ask what the youngest age of any pilot is in and if the f3x leagues ?

    ill give you an example -

    i was a member of a badminton ladder for several years  when the younger Ines left to have children it was just the older ones left  then they started dying out and was left with six folkes all doing round robins   

    We were hardly Olympic standard but it goes to show that with a lack of new blood and the loss of old blood it just fizzles out  

    like oipigface said about training and a low cost option. 

    The cost of model flying in these contests is the limiting factor. 

    I see carbon models and traveling to contests as a thing for middle aged men with older children or none. 

    If people can't afford the models to compete in these contests then they may also not have the inclination to build there own.

    im afraid quad racing has taken over modelling and attracts kids cos it's fast and cheap to get into and if they break the airframe it costs a few quid for a replacement part not thousands for a replacement model  

    quad racing took over from 3D heli flying the teenagers did in the mid 00 to about when quads came out  

    let plastic models be and there is a place for them and it's generally with middle aged men  with lots of spare income and plenty of free time  

    What's the cost of a competitive airframe for any of the formula ?

    a coupe of grand (making sure you get this years model and in envogue colours)

    so how about if your driving around the country competing you would want more then one airframe  the cost is twice as much then.

    its not ever going to be sustainable as even sadly dare I say f5j will also die with this generation and will probably have the shortest life span of any of the glider formats. 

    And now I say that it's a shame that I have found gliding so blooming late in life.

    beat of luck with people flying and I hope that it itches the scratch you guys need to be sorted but don't be surprised if one day no one can come to that badminton court booking.

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    thermaldoctor

    Posted

    19 hours ago, Omega said:

     

    Can I ask what the youngest age of any pilot is in and if the f3x leagues ?

    like oipigface said about training and a low cost option. 

    The cost of model flying in these contests is the limiting factor. 

    I see carbon models and traveling to contests as a thing for middle aged men with older children or none. 

    If people can't afford the models to compete in these contests then they may also not have the inclination to build there own.

    im afraid quad racing has taken over modelling and attracts kids cos it's fast and cheap to get into and if they break the airframe it costs a few quid for a replacement part not thousands for a replacement model  

    let plastic models be and there is a place for them and it's generally with middle aged men  with lots of spare income and plenty of free time  

    its not ever going to be sustainable as even sadly dare I say f5j will also die with this generation and will probably have the shortest life span of any of the glider formats. 

     

    There is definitely an element of truth in what you say. The youngest that have competed in F3j in the UK in the last decade has been me (42) and Kevin Dart (mid-late 30's I think). Most others are 50/60 and some older. I'm afraid to say the fascination of flight and RC planes amongst youngsters today is almost non-existent.

    But I don't agree with the suggestion that it is cost that is the limiting factor in the popularity of RC glider contests. If fixed wing clubs around the country were full of keen youngsters flying foamies and cheap artf models but the competition scene was just older people then I would agree with what you say as you could assume that cost would prevent many of them from buying suitable airframes and competing. But sadly most RC flying clubs are full of older retired 60+ pilots with anyone under the age of 40 almost regarded as a junior. 

    With so many cheap ready to fly models easily available now it has never been a better time for kids to get into RC flying but they aren't. As you mention quadcoptors are faster and more exciting for a youngster. RC car racing is also hugely popular with under 30's and can be almost as expensive. A competitve RC car will set you back about £350. Then you need some upgrades approx £100. Then a good esc £150 and motor £90 and at least 4 packs of lipos £160. Steering servo at least £50 and then TX/RX £100. Plus of course a good selection of tyres approx £100. This totals £1100 yet when I go RC car racing I see lots of kids and under 30's all having paid this sort of money and not having found it a limiting factor at all.

    Most technology based sports can be expensive and for many this is part of the attraction, not the expensive bit of course but rather being involved with advanced hi-tech hi-performance products. Unfortunately this comes at a price but it is not the limiting factor in its popularity. For example there have been some here on BARCS trying to get 2m balsa wood models going again which are really cheap but this looks to have had very limited appeal.

    Regards

    Neil

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    pete beadle

    Posted

    Hi all

    Unfortunately there are four major reasons why "kids" are not flocking to our hobby in droves these days.........

    1) They are perfectly happy to get their kicks in the digital world rather than the real one

    2) They are not prepared to wait to enjoy the excitement it promises - they're perfectly happy to be flying a simulator, they've got a button on their simulator that instantly rebuilds the model(s) they crash, so why bother to jump through all the hoops they need to do, to do it for real..... 

    3)  Model flying isn't cool

    4) They think they can find FAR better uses for the cash

    Then again, if I were a marketing analyst kids wouldn't get past test one in assessing their suitability to be a target for my employer.......they don't know what they do want and even if they did know what they wanted, they wouldn't get it past the Bank of Mum and Dad......end of:D:yes::(

    Regards

    Pete

    BARCS1702 

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    Darren_O

    Posted

    Personally I think clubs and BMFA are not doing enough to reach out to the wider community. 
    Put a display team together and go fly village fetes and county shows...

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    thermaldoctor

    Posted

    2 hours ago, Darren_O said:

    Personally I think clubs and BMFA are not doing enough to reach out to the wider community. 
    Put a display team together and go fly village fetes and county shows...

    Agree but I don't think this will ever happen. Amateur organisations generally lack either funding or incentive to do anything else other than back slap key members or ostracise others. The governing body of rc cars is like this and does nothing to promote its sport either.

    the popular rc categories these days cars and quads are not promoted at all by their governing bodies. They are heavily promoted and partially funded to be very slick and professional looking by the main people who have much to gain (and lose) by the success of their future.......the manufacturers. RC car manufacturers each put thousands in to sponsor events and professional you tube footage etc. when you go to a regional or national event there is a sense of occasion and grandure with lots of sponsorship banners and shops in attendance etc. Plus of course a burger van or kitchen at the race venue for the wives and mums. Plus toilets. At a national rc plane event there will be 20 pilots in the middle of a field. That's it.

    this is one of the big differences I see.

    rc planes and gliders in particular is a very amateur event and only driven by the desire of the participants to do it. the manufacturers are often cottage industry in terms of composite models both glider and power and any mainstream product will often be from china or the far east who sell in large volumes worldwide and probably not prepared to help develop and promote any local markets or do not have the general well being of rc flying at heart

    big distributors ike ripmax, Perkins and macgregor I think need to start doing something to promote rc planes and gliders amongst a newer younger pilot or the markets they rely on to survive will disappear over the next decade or two. Unless they start to concentrate on rc cars and quads which many of them are now starting to do which is a sign of the times......

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    Steve J

    Posted

    14 hours ago, Darren_O said:

    Put a display team together and go fly village fetes and county shows...

    I know clubs that have had static displays at such events. Flying displays are much more problematic ('elf & safety, insurance, site suitability) and lets face it, thermal soaring is hardly a spectator sport.

    Steve

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    ididnotkilljfk

    Posted

    I've read this thread with interest and have to agree that competitive gliding has to all intent and purpose shot itself in the foot and then continued to shoot itself multiple times thereafter !

    Having taken part in gliding events during the hay day years of the pre glass ship 100" and 'Open " classes the elitist class was F3B. The route to competition was much more incremental , you would build a off the shelf glider ( in my case this was a Galaxy Gold Cloud) and could compete with that design within the bounds of its build. You would inevitably break it , make the necessary repairs or a revised rebuild to accommodate the needs of the competition and your expectations eg stronger wing for a more aggressive tow than the original design would accommodate . This was an incremental process and built up from a simple cheap start point and piloting skill. The provision of commercial designs swept the whole of the competition scene across all the disciplines , you only have to look at the fate of 'hand launch' to see the results , what started as a simple really really cheap option of a 2 channel built up model that just about anyone could build and use quickly turned into a 1 model ( FVK 'Simply the best') event, then suddenly discus launch kicked in and poly wing designs became obsolete almost overnight, it then became a race to build ever thinner stronger lighter moulded designs with ailerons and flaps to accommodate this launch technique. so suddenly entry level goes from a simple knock up build yourself over a couple of weekends to an expensive  precision glass ship requiring much higher flying skills.The few EPP DLG designs have perhaps helped a little for those averse to the "build" but the onus still is driven toward the ultimate of a glass ship like a blaster or equivalent and flying skills on a par with micro surgery to reign in such thoroughbred designs.  Look carefully and this applied to most of the competition events and all succumbed to the "I've got to get one of those to be competitive" 

    Yes there will be those that jump up and point out that Radian pros have won electric events over the big expensive floaters and yes this does inspire to some small extent the option of joining in on a budget.

    The competitive model glider flying  has estranged itself from any club level amateur, F3J turned into some sort of germanic team scheduleding event akin to a performance of swan lake!and as for model variation its probably down to a selection of perhaps 4 or 5 designs all to all intent and purpose the same, certainly no real scope or incentive to stray from such formula designs with anything unusual !

    Realistically the lone amateur isnt going to feel very inspired , I've spectated events and those there are so busy with actual event theres very little in the way of inspiring such visitor to be motivated to join in . Add to that the actual bang for buck is limited in terms of actual flying after you have done your share of spotting, timing dogging etc when compared to going out on your tod to do some sport flying

    Until you can foster the have  a go with what ever you have mentality you arnt going to inspire anyone to stump up the initial outlay so in order to pave te way in the future ther needs to be the means to get local club members flying gliders so that they dont instinctively grab their OS 90 pitts bipe  but perhaps load up an epp glider into the car as well , seeing gliders on the field or in the air has to be be a start point in encouraging necommers to focus on soaring as an interest amidst all the other eye candy activities out there and is something soarers have consistently failed at over alot of years.

     

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    ididnotkilljfk

    Posted

    On 14/04/2017 at 14:02, thermaldoctor said:

    There is definitely an element of truth in what you say. The youngest that have competed in F3j in the UK in the last decade has been me (42) and Kevin Dart (mid-late 30's I think). Most others are 50/60 and some older. I'm afraid to say the fascination of flight and RC planes amongst youngsters today is almost non-existent.

    But I don't agree with the suggestion that it is cost that is the limiting factor in the popularity of RC glider contests. If fixed wing clubs around the country were full of keen youngsters flying foamies and cheap artf models but the competition scene was just older people then I would agree with what you say as you could assume that cost would prevent many of them from buying suitable airframes and competing. But sadly most RC flying clubs are full of older retired 60+ pilots with anyone under the age of 40 almost regarded as a junior. 

    With so many cheap ready to fly models easily available now it has never been a better time for kids to get into RC flying but they aren't. As you mention quadcoptors are faster and more exciting for a youngster. RC car racing is also hugely popular with under 30's and can be almost as expensive. A competitve RC car will set you back about £350. Then you need some upgrades approx £100. Then a good esc £150 and motor £90 and at least 4 packs of lipos £160. Steering servo at least £50 and then TX/RX £100. Plus of course a good selection of tyres approx £100. This totals £1100 yet when I go RC car racing I see lots of kids and under 30's all having paid this sort of money and not having found it a limiting factor at all.

    Most technology based sports can be expensive and for many this is part of the attraction, not the expensive bit of course but rather being involved with advanced hi-tech hi-performance products. Unfortunately this comes at a price but it is not the limiting factor in its popularity. For example there have been some here on BARCS trying to get 2m balsa wood models going again which are really cheap but this looks to have had very limited appeal.

    Regards

    Neil

    with anyone under the age of 40 almost regarded as a junior....lol

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    satinet

    Posted

    On 4/21/2017 at 03:36, ididnotkilljfk said:

    I've read this thread with interest and have to agree that competitive gliding has to all intent and purpose shot itself in the foot and then continued to shoot itself multiple times thereafter !

    Having taken part in gliding events during the hay day years of the pre glass ship 100" and 'Open " classes the elitist class was F3B. The route to competition was much more incremental , you would build a off the shelf glider ( in my case this was a Galaxy Gold Cloud) and could compete with that design within the bounds of its build. You would inevitably break it , make the necessary repairs or a revised rebuild to accommodate the needs of the competition and your expectations eg stronger wing for a more aggressive tow than the original design would accommodate . This was an incremental process and built up from a simple cheap start point and piloting skill. The provision of commercial designs swept the whole of the competition scene across all the disciplines , you only have to look at the fate of 'hand launch' to see the results , what started as a simple really really cheap option of a 2 channel built up model that just about anyone could build and use quickly turned into a 1 model ( FVK 'Simply the best') event, then suddenly discus launch kicked in and poly wing designs became obsolete almost overnight, it then became a race to build ever thinner stronger lighter moulded designs with ailerons and flaps to accommodate this launch technique. so suddenly entry level goes from a simple knock up build yourself over a couple of weekends to an expensive  precision glass ship requiring much higher flying skills.The few EPP DLG designs have perhaps helped a little for those averse to the "build" but the onus still is driven toward the ultimate of a glass ship like a blaster or equivalent and flying skills on a par with micro surgery to reign in such thoroughbred designs.  Look carefully and this applied to most of the competition events and all succumbed to the "I've got to get one of those to be competitive" 

    Yes there will be those that jump up and point out that Radian pros have won electric events over the big expensive floaters and yes this does inspire to some small extent the option of joining in on a budget.

    The competitive model glider flying  has estranged itself from any club level amateur, F3J turned into some sort of germanic team scheduleding event akin to a performance of swan lake!and as for model variation its probably down to a selection of perhaps 4 or 5 designs all to all intent and purpose the same, certainly no real scope or incentive to stray from such formula designs with anything unusual !

    Realistically the lone amateur isnt going to feel very inspired , I've spectated events and those there are so busy with actual event theres very little in the way of inspiring such visitor to be motivated to join in . Add to that the actual bang for buck is limited in terms of actual flying after you have done your share of spotting, timing dogging etc when compared to going out on your tod to do some sport flying

    Until you can foster the have  a go with what ever you have mentality you arnt going to inspire anyone to stump up the initial outlay so in order to pave te way in the future ther needs to be the means to get local club members flying gliders so that they dont instinctively grab their OS 90 pitts bipe  but perhaps load up an epp glider into the car as well , seeing gliders on the field or in the air has to be be a start point in encouraging necommers to focus on soaring as an interest amidst all the other eye candy activities out there and is something soarers have consistently failed at over alot of years.

     

    I think the problem is an overall decline in gliding not contest flying per se. Your post contains a logical flaw because there isn't anyone flying non contest models at clubs who could be put off.  You could make the argument that the high end stuff puts off people from even trying, but that's a bit like saying f1 puts people off from go-karts. I don't see a lot of evidence of much thermal sport flying going on.

    The other issue is that every time someone tries to bring in a restricted class it's always a complete failure. In the UK at least.  As Neil says people are doing other hobbies that are at least as expensive as glider flying, in reasonable numbers. The reality is far fewer people want to build gliders in a traditional way than who want to pay what mouldies cost.  Even the 2m woodie class they are now making models with CNC cut super thin wing sections, which seems to completely defeat the object of the exercise to me. 

     

     

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    martynk

    Posted

    3 minutes ago, satinet said:

    I think the problem is an overall decline in gliding not contest flying per se. Your post contains a logical flaw because there isn't anyone flying non contest models at clubs who could be put off.  You could make the argument that the high end stuff puts off people from even trying, but that's a bit like saying f1 puts people off from go-karts. I don't see a lot of evidence of much thermal sport flying going on.

    The other issue is that every time someone tries to bring in a restricted class it's always a complete failure. In the UK at least.  As Neil says people are doing other hobbies that are at least as expensive as glider flying, in reasonable numbers. The reality is far fewer people want to build gliders in a traditional way than who want to pay what mouldies cost.  Even the 2m woodie class they are now making models with CNC cut super thin wing sections, which seems to completely defeat the object of the exercise to me. 

     

     

    First para - agree wholeheartedly..

    Second para - regarding laser/CNC cut parts. The wing ribs for my O/D F3-RES cost me £25.00 including postage from Belair. I could have cut them myself but probably not as accurately. The total model cost, including cheap LV servos and Rx was about £100. I could have saved money by using a wooden fus if I wanted to.  At the very worst that is a substantial cost reduction on a moulded model of a similar size. By using the super thin wing sections etc at least we are using modern aerodynamics within older technology and demonstrating that the result is viable - within the rules and scope of that particular class.

    I have an income that is above national average. I have to weigh up the cost of my hobby against the demands of family life, holidays, preparing for retirement etc. My aeromodelling hobby is still the one thing that I cherish and I spend in proportion more on aeromodelling than anything else of my monthly allowance - including my other interest - classic Motorcycles (I have 3), but I still feel that I cannot afford (or able to justify to SWMBO) to buy a moulded model aeroplane. IMHO - and I know that it is different for other people - moulded aircraft are not especially good value for money - in the pure bang for buck category. I spend as much time flying other low(er) cost aeroplanes - gliders, Classic F3A, Fun fliers etc and I can't see why a moulded aeroplane would give me any more pleasure to fly although I cannot refute the fact that it would be far, far more capable than anything I can produce on my pine building board. 

    The crux of the matter or difference is that to be competitive in the mainstream gliding competitions, you have (or at least it is considered essential) to have a moulded aircraft and I feel that the outlay does put people off - especially as there is apparently no alternative available as a taster. With no alternatives, there is no low cost introduction to thermal soaring for the casual or club flier who just may grow enough interest to want to enter competitions and eventually purchase a modern airframe. My own F3-RES is starting to generate interest at my local patch with several members coming up and asking me about it and the class. Hopefully one or two may get tempted to have a go and if so, I'll divert them to Neil for a kit.. I would guess that 99.99% of the aeromodellers in the UK are sports fliers - if you can attract just 0.1% of that group then you have probably fixed all concerns about diminishing interest in glider competitions

    Apologies - this reads a bit like a rant and its not intended to. I am just trying to express another point of view.

     

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    pete beadle

    Posted

    Hi Martyn

     "moulded aircraft are not especially good value for money - in the pure bang for buck category"

    .......I'm sorry Martyn but there speaks a man that doesn't fly moulded........believe me, it's got very little to do with cost.....

    I was introduced to moulded models by a good friend way, way back and my introduction was a Valenta Dogan F3B (pre-owned of course). When I first flew it I wondered what all the fuss was about.....unfortunately no-one told me I MUSTN'T fly it like a "woodie" and I didn't ask, so wasn't told When another flyer watched me lurching about on the slope he just couldn't stand it any more, so he chirped up and said something like "Are you flying like that deliberately?"....apparently, my face was a picture, and I seemed to be gritting my teeth and muttering all the time, clearly something was VERY much amiss......

    "Get some down trim in" he said ......."no, lots of down trim would be better" .......thirty seconds later my face was wreathed in smiles, the ailerons were biting, the tracking was smoother, faster and more predictable and the "light-bulb moment" was complete......."Faster is better he said.....and he was right

    One other example, if I may, I was flying my dear old Proton 140 at the High Wycombe Open, I'd noticed some birds starting to circle well outside the perimeter of the field  and started to "tippytoes" my Proton toward the birds, I was about half way there, when a Calypso Contest went past me at speed, showing off with the flattest glide angle I'd ever seen, reached the birds, scattered them, and started circling.......by the time I arrived the Contest was well into the thermal and couldn't be caught by my Proton.....then, about 10 seconds later, all the other mouldies in the slot were murdering me, in the same thermal, circling and climbing like lovesick angels........:cry:

    I bought my Thermik "C" 4 or 5 weeks later.......and never regretted the outlay once.....flying mouldies, especially in competitions, is a step change in performance and enjoyment that you literally have to try one to believe it.......borrow one from a trusting mate, give it a go and be welcomed to the club.....it'll be worth it, I assure you.......:yes:

    Regards

    Pete

    BARCS1702

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    EssexBOF

    Posted

    19 hours ago, martynk said:

    First para - agree wholeheartedly..

    Second para - regarding laser/CNC cut parts. The wing ribs for my O/D F3-RES cost me £25.00 including postage from Belair. I could have cut them myself but probably not as accurately. The total model cost, including cheap LV servos and Rx was about £100. I could have saved money by using a wooden fus if I wanted to.  At the very worst that is a substantial cost reduction on a moulded model of a similar size. By using the super thin wing sections etc at least we are using modern aerodynamics within older technology and demonstrating that the result is viable - within the rules and scope of that particular class.

    I have an income that is above national average. I have to weigh up the cost of my hobby against the demands of family life, holidays, preparing for retirement etc. My aeromodelling hobby is still the one thing that I cherish and I spend in proportion more on aeromodelling than anything else of my monthly allowance - including my other interest - classic Motorcycles (I have 3), but I still feel that I cannot afford (or able to justify to SWMBO) to buy a moulded model aeroplane. IMHO - and I know that it is different for other people - moulded aircraft are not especially good value for money - in the pure bang for buck category. I spend as much time flying other low(er) cost aeroplanes - gliders, Classic F3A, Fun fliers etc and I can't see why a moulded aeroplane would give me any more pleasure to fly although I cannot refute the fact that it would be far, far more capable than anything I can produce on my pine building board. 

    The crux of the matter or difference is that to be competitive in the mainstream gliding competitions, you have (or at least it is considered essential) to have a moulded aircraft and I feel that the outlay does put people off - especially as there is apparently no alternative available as a taster. With no alternatives, there is no low cost introduction to thermal soaring for the casual or club flier who just may grow enough interest to want to enter competitions and eventually purchase a modern airframe. My own F3-RES is starting to generate interest at my local patch with several members coming up and asking me about it and the class. Hopefully one or two may get tempted to have a go and if so, I'll divert them to Neil for a kit.. I would guess that 99.99% of the aeromodellers in the UK are sports fliers - if you can attract just 0.1% of that group then you have probably fixed all concerns about diminishing interest in glider competitions

    Apologies - this reads a bit like a rant and its not intended to. I am just trying to express another point of view.

     

    See this link that shows you can build a model to compete with moulded  models

     

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    martynk

    Posted

    'Bang for Buck etc"

    I *knew* I had got that wrong. I kept reading it and it was staring me in the face..Pompous git that I am..

    Apologies.. The point I was trying to make was that to attract newcomers who simply enjoy their sports flying - whether thermal or power, the cost of a moulded aircraft may be perceived as poor value for money - even if it was affordable..I have seen and witnessed the performance of moulded aircraft - both on the slope and on our humble patch, and I agree they are pretty awesome, but I still believe that to attract newcomers into the competitive aspect of our hobby, there has to be an alternative path.

    I am sorry if I put peoples backs up with that comment, it wasn't intended..

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    martynk

    Posted

    2 hours ago, EssexBOF said:

    See this link that shows you can build a model to compete with moulded  models

     

    Thanks Brian..

    PM'd..

     

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    satinet

    Posted

    58 minutes ago, martynk said:

    'Bang for Buck etc"

    I *knew* I had got that wrong. I kept reading it and it was staring me in the face..Pompous git that I am..

    Apologies.. The point I was trying to make was that to attract newcomers who simply enjoy their sports flying - whether thermal or power, the cost of a moulded aircraft may be perceived as poor value for money - even if it was affordable..I have seen and witnessed the performance of moulded aircraft - both on the slope and on our humble patch, and I agree they are pretty awesome, but I still believe that to attract newcomers into the competitive aspect of our hobby, there has to be an alternative path.

    I am sorry if I put peoples backs up with that comment, it wasn't intended..

    It doesn't put my back up at all. I see where you are coming from with regards to getting people interested to establish a pyramid.  I don't know what goes on at power or general flying clubs as I don't involve myself with heretical acts like flying electric and IC.  :lol:

    With regards to slope soaring, at my club a lot people have mouldies of one sort or another. You don't see a lot in between foam and moulded.  The few times I've been flat field soaring at Malvern, there were a lot of very high end models, but they didn't take part in any fai or national contests. 

    I would be great to see more people get in to gliding via the 2m woodie class, but I remain a pessimist on that one.  I think part of the problem is it seems like a great idea on a lovely summer day, but look out your window now, it's windy and grey.

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    pete beadle

    Posted

    Hi Martyn

    quote "I am sorry if I put peoples backs up with that comment, it wasn't intended.."

    No apology is necessary, your reply stated your opinion and that reply was most welcome, most topics start by other members saying " OK, that's what you think, this is what I think" and gradually the number of replies build until the "knock down, drag out" answer appears and the toing and froing stops

    It's what a forum is for and the BARCS Forum IMHO is the best there is:yes::D

    Keep plugging on Martyn, we DO need to know your opinion

    BTW I think the suggestions mentioning low-cost entry to our sport are the most "evergreen" and thank goodness for that, trouble is, not many of the suggestions  end up being taken up:(

    Regards

    Pete

    BARCS1702

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  • Our picks

    • by Sydney Lenssen, July 2018

      Brian Austin has been co-opted by the BARCS Executive Committee as the new President of BARCS. His three year term of office will be confirmed by the membership at the AGM 2019. I am confident that this announcement will be welcomed by all BARCS members. Many, if not all, members know Brian from his long record of achievements and activities in the silent flight field. He is especially known for his friendly cheerful manner, always at hand to help fellow modellers.


      Four years ago, Brian was awarded BARCS’ Eppler Trophy, in my opinion, the association’s the most prestigious award with a long list of distinguished aeromodellers such as Eppler himself.

      Graham James, BARCS President at that time, wrote the following citation: In the early years of BARCS, awarding was often a relatively straightforward decision as new construction methods, materials, wing sections, control methods and launch and landing requirements demanded continuous model development. Today, many of us have moved onto moulded ready builds and the skills of the true modeller are largely being lost.


      One person, Brian Austin, continues to lead the field in home design and build models. Responsible over the years for many familiar Open and 100s designs, his name is now better known in electric circles not only for his planes but also as a driving force behind competition rule progression. Names like Trilogy, Alacrity and more recently the Watts series of electric gliders, of which Watts New is the latest incarnation, will be familiar to us all. For many years, he has also been the responsible for running a very successful series of competitions in Essex.

      Although tempted by shiny plastic models too, he continues to fashion exquisitely beautiful soarers, built to standards that most of us can only
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    • Can F3J survive the treatment meant to save it
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      Two weeks ago the RC Soaring Technical Meeting in Lausanne took the bull by the horns and introduced new rules aimed at saving F3J glider contests from sliding off the world and continental championship schedules - the death of what for many soaring pilots is the most popular of silent flight competitions.

      Joe Wurts, the first F3J World Champion in 1998 at Upton-upon Severn, UK. Twenty years later with the latest F3J WC about to take place in Romania, many soarers are fearing that this could be the last.


      THE NEW RULES

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      CIAM, the world ruling body for this class is hoping that its new rules will halt the massive fall in numbers of F3J pilots wishing to compete, sixty per cent over the past five years and still falling, and restore its popularity.

      But among many F3J pilots, the bull is still shaking its horns. There has been an extraordinary shock reaction: hundreds of pilots from all over the world have reacted on social media, protesting, angry and forecasting the end of this class. Many pilots are concerned, ranging from previous finalists and champions to your typical enthusiast who enjoys travelling across country and continental boundaries to participate in their friendly sport. Only a few can see the logic and reasoning and are prepared to wait and see how the changes work in practice. More than a few want CIAM to think again!



       
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    • Rule changes to halt terminal decline
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      Winches to be allowed.

      If this proposal goes through the “launch of the model aircraft will be by hand held towline or winch.” Ever since 1998 when the first F3J world championships were held at Upton on Severn, pressure has been on CIAM to bring in winch launching. At numerous team managers’ meetings held by Jury President Bartovsky during World and European championships, arguments for and against have raged. Many countries do not have enough people to give one or two man tows, so they run their qualifying comps to local rules using electric winches. I guess more than half of countries do this. When they turn up at FAI championships, their pulleys and hand winches are brought out. In the UK perhaps we had one or two practice sessions at home before leaving.

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    • by Sydney Lenssen, BARCS President and Gary Binnie, BARCS Chairman

      We and the BARCS executive committee wish all members, and indeed everyone who enjoys model flying and thermal soaring, a very happy Christmas, and also a very special year ahead in 2018. May all your achievements, higher scores and hopes be realised.

      Year 2017 has been a mixed year, probably for everybody. The biggest triumph by far has been the successful opening of BMFA’s National Flying Centre at Buckminster. BARCS can be very proud that it was the first group of aeromodellers to utilise the facilities on offer by organising a successful Radioglide 2017 at the end of May. 

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