Proposals re F5J national comps 2023

[Nick Jackson]

I'm consulting on these proposals for the big national F5J competitions in 2023 (Radioglide, Interglide, SF Nationals). Please make any comments / suggestions by replying below asap:

1. Interglide
   Move forward to 1-2 July, Hamilton Farm. Make every effort to attract overseas, as well as UK, pilots.
2. Fly-offs
   Run fly-offs at Radioglide and SF Nats F5J as well as at Interglide
3. Paper scoring
   Revert to paper scoring at Radioglide and SF Nats F5J as well as at Interglide

Context
There's been a lot of discussion between those of us involved in the organisation of these comps in 2022 about what worked / what didn't / how to improve for next year. That organiser discussion was pulled together in a Zoom meet yesterday evening, which other interested members of SFTC and of BARCS EC also attended. The meeting came up with the three proposals above to put (together with your comments) to SFTC and BARCS when they meet EC late Oct / early Nov..

More detail
** Moving Interglide to early July puts it between Hollandglide (24-25 June) and Loire Valley (8-9 July). It doesn't clash with any other F5J Eurotour comps. The move was suggested by Steve Haley and other NE fliers, to coordinate with Loire Valley and holidaying in France afterwards. Other Eurotour organisers are fine with it and one of them suggests the three comps in successive weekends may attract E European competitors. Attracting pilots from other countries has been a struggle in the last couple of years for Interglide (and other Eurotour comps). But the meeting was committed to returning to IG as a big international if at all possible - hence leaving it in Kent. And there will be a number of tweaks to attract overseas pilots. Issues raised previously on the forum about the earlier date were hopefully sorted.
** Fly-offs were thought to provide a proper climax to these big team-trial competitions and to give some practice for WCH / ECH fly-offs. Meeting was very conscious of the need to make the comps work for those of us not likely to be in the fly-off as well as for the top pilots. We'd aim for five rounds of the main comp on the Sunday (four as the min if unavoidable) for RG and SF Nats. IG to stay with three for an early finish to encourage overseas entries. (Fly-offs not to count for team selection or one-day comp league entries).
** Some organisers prefer paper scoring (pilots putting in their scores on paper at the end of each round rather than using eScoring on their phones) anyway. For me, impetus is the proposed use of fly-offs, which need the results from the main comp fast. Meeting was not keen on relying on pilots to check GliderScore printouts against their score records in these big national comps and, if the organisers are to do a full check, trad paper is faster. (Very open, though, to any suggestions of how to do fast organiser checking with eScoring.)

Thoughts?

[wixy]

No Problem at all with moving IG  as it seems sensible .

Fly Offs for 2 day comps yes . but you could consider RG & NATS  one round per day (last one)to be 15 minute duration  ,which would give all pilots the opportunity to further test their skills.

Return to paper scoring would be a massive backward step ,and put unnecessary pressure on organisers /cd .

At the end off a competition scores should be posted for 10/15 minutes before prize giving ,so all can check for mistakes .

(It used to be in the fai f3j rules  that prelimary scores should be posted for 30minutes before flyoff pilots were announced) .

G

[Eddy Small]

OK With moving IG.

I'm not a great lover of Fly Offs.

A big NO to going back with paper scoring.

Eddy.

[andyharrold]

I agree with everything Wixy said .

 

[keith fisher]

Interglide date move is good

fly off yes please

not keen on going back to paper score keeping

[Garry Matthews]

Moving the IG date seems a logical move to better fit with the near European events.

Fly-off in two day events is ok with me.

Moving back to paper scoring would be  a completely retrograde step.

[PaulR]

The score checking is an area where the online only approach of F3XVault (rather than Gliderscore) may offer a more streamlined experience.

At any point in the competition you can click on a pilot's name and view all scores entered so far:

Two options for paper score sheets are also provided, both the "normal" one round per sheet and also a multi-round sheet that can be retained for the duration of the event and then handed in at the end for easy checking against the screen above.

It would look like this for F5J:

BTW, the QR code on this score card takes you to the latest round with no score entered, so continues to work throughout the day.

We've adopted this approach for F3K and it obviously reduces the number of pieces of paper that need to be handled and collated. We're very happy with the move away from GliderScore to F3XVault within the F3K league but I have no experience of running an F5J event with F3XVault (seems like plenty of others do though, judging from the list of events I can see online).

My offer to demo the system at Radioglide fell by the wayside as I had my two boys camping with me that weekend, but I'm open to a bit of show and tell around how we are using it in F3K.

[tonym]

1. As long as the grass/hay is guaranteed to be cut and removed from the area that we were using then earlier date not a problem.

2. Would make sense to have fly-offs at bigger contests - organisers should not be surprised if there's a shortage of timers as pilots not in the fly-off want to get started for home.

3. Retrograde step going back to paper only - lets join the C21st. Paper definitely required for checking though.

F3XVault is a better system but it seems UK F5J has hitched itself to GliderScore so that ship may have sailed I'd like Pandora!
I like wixy's idea of a 15min last round, there's options to try that now.

[ThermalBoy]

1. Moving IG date is OK.

2. Using 15min rounds IIRC for the last one or two rounds of a comp has I believe, been used in the states for their team selection comp for World Championship F5J.  Doing this for our domestic comps, (maybe even RG & the Nats?) would allow all competitors to participate in a full days flying as they do now but with an added bonus of even more flying if they fly the 15min slot out!

3. Going back to paper scoring would be a big retrograde step IMO. Most pilots I have spoken to at comps say they now much prefer score entry to be via their phones. Paper back up is a must though.

Hi Paul - Re F3X Vault vs GS
From what you have described about F3X, as far as I'm aware, GS does exactly the same? I've not used F3X Vault before either as a CD or competitor. One question I would be interested in asking though is whether F3X is able to generate the same level of multiple report types that GS can?

Colin

[tonym]

Colin - perhaps continue the f3xvault discussion here?

 

[ThermalBoy]

2 minutes ago, tonym said:

Colin - perhaps continue the f3xvault discussion here?

 

Hi Tony
Good idea. Didnt mean for this to interfere with Nick's consultation.

Cheers
Colin

[RSH]

Nick,

Points 1 & 2 - I agree

Scoring - I use GliderScore to run competitions and see reverting to paper a retrograde step, at least for those running the comp.   For the competitors, I don't suppose it makes too much difference as they record their scores on paper either way. 

We do check the online GS data against the paper records, which as you say, does take some time.  I have found the best (quickest) way is to sort the paper records alphabetically then use GS  Reports > Flight scores - ordered by pilot name (also alphabetically).  For each pilot, it seems quickest to read out the figures from GS in column order, so all flight times, then landing points etc.  Errors are noted on the score card by ringing the data in question.  As the paper record are the master, GS data is corrected later using Score Entry.

This is relatively quick for say 30 pilots, and clearly longer for larger events.  Since the Reports>Flight scores can be also set up to just print preview certain round scores, it would be possible to just view/check rounds 1-3 or 3-6  (or indeed 1-5 & 6 only).  I raise this as it gives the opportunity to do half (or more) the work earlier.  To do this without interrupting the flow of the event, you could issue 2 Score Records sheets per pilot instead of usual one and then request all score records for rounds 1 to 3 be submitted after round 3. That way the organisers can verify half the data well before the fly-offs (whatever they are - never reached those dizzy heights !)

 

My two penneth for what its worth

Richard

[Steve Haley]

Hi Nick,

Happy to see IG dates adjusted to improve alignment with other Euro tour events assuming the fields can be prepared and hay cut in time.

Fly-offs
I am in favour of fly-offs at Radioglide, SF Nats F5J and Interglide assuming these events are to continue as team qualification, then the contest format should mirror where possible, international events the uk teams will compete in.

Paper scoring
Like many, I think reverting back to paper scoring is a retrograde step. I also believe full ‘GliderKeeper’ technology which is the core AMRT plus timing unit that’s located in your model which then transmits your score directly, will be the scoring system of the future negating the requirement for time keepers all together.

Thanks Steve

[Brian Johnson]

Hi Nick,

I agree with the change to Interglide dates in order to align better with the Eurotour league.

As far as fly-offs are concerned, we should have them for the 3 x 2 day team trials. Eurotour league events have fly-offs as have the Worlds and Euros and if we are simulating these contests to find a team, then we need fly-offs.

I also think that Radioglide, Interglide, and the Nationals F5J should be 2 day contests, not split into separate single days as they are now.

As it is now, we are really flying a compressed league over 3 weekends. We should be trying to simulate the contests we are trying for and have proper 2 day contests.

Paper scoring has gone, unfortunately the current computer system has flaws and needs sorting but it is the future, as Steve says, GliderKeeper is the next move I think.

Regards, Brian.

 

[PeteMitchell]

I don't dissagree with any of the comments here (well most of them ) but we have to keep using a paper record score card.

As far as I know, a hard copy record must be retained for checking and verification purposes, in all classes of BMFA competitions.

[Nick Jackson]

Thanks for all the responses,. They're provoking a lot of committee discussion, which is still ongoing. But a few comments in the interim:

1. Interglide to 1-2 July - reassuring there is widespread support. Thanks.
    
2. Fly-offs - Graham gives an interesting alternative: the 15 min last round for all. After some initial worries about whether this was practicable, Pete Mitchell has pointed out how it can be done easily in GliderScore - no technical problem. But the balance of argument seems to be in favour of fly-offs: better replication of WCH / ECH conditions for team hopefuls; less chance of shooting ourselves in the foot for the rest of us. But to be decided.
    
3. Paper scoring - actually, it's all paper scoring. Pilots write their scores on paper. A digital copy is made. The digital copy is used to calculate the results once it has been checked against the paper copy and the digital copy has been altered if there are discrepancies.  This is true of trad GliderScore without eScoring, of GliderScore with eScoring and (I think I have this right?) of F3XVault. As Pete Mitchell says, there is always paper. And, further, it is the paper record which is definitive. The best way to do the scoring is a matter of detail in accuracy and checking, speed and convenience rather than any fundamental difference between smartphone (progressive) slips of paper (retrograde)? Discussion is still ongoing but we're trying to think through possibilities of inputting by phone (pilots seem to prefer it), checking the digital copy against the paper by organisers (there's resistance to Graham's argument that checking by pilots, at least as currently practised, is suitable for these big national comps) but which are faster than SF Nats etc, so there can be a fly-off after the main comp without delay.
   F3XVault is clearly an interesting alternative to GliderScore and I'd be very interested in a demo as offered by Paul / hearing where Tony and Colin get to in looking at it. But (as above) it does not sound different from GliderScore in its fundamentals; we've quite an investment of effort in GliderScore and have developed a degree of expertise; if Steve and Brian are right that the future is GliderKeeper (and really no paper?) there doesn't seem a  lot of mileage in changing software in the interim.

Hope this is a helpful update. Further responses still useful. Will let you know as soon as there are any committee decisions.

Edited September 30, 2022 by Nick Jackson
Putting right misallocation of the credit for showing how to do 15 min final round in GS.

[Nick Jackson]

Quote

I also think that Radioglide, Interglide, and the Nationals F5J should be 2 day contests, not split into separate single days as they are now.

Sorry - meant to respond to this from Brian.

They're already two-day contests. Winner of each is the pilot who does best over the two days,, with one dropped score over the two days. Team selection is based on performance in best 2/3 of these two-day comps.

Additionally in EG and Nats (but not IG), there are awards for performance on each of the two days, with one dropped score on the relevant day. BMFA and BARCS leagues are based on these one-day scores (and this is perhaps what Brian is objecting to?) Object of these subsidiary one-day comps is to give to pilots who can only attend on one day the opportunity to do well - but it's the two-day events which are the main ones.

[thermaldoctor]

Definite to fly offs.

Also a definite is me being a luddite with regards to phone scoring. But....I really don't understand why score entry being triplicated is so popular?

Step 1) pilots or helpers write score on paper ticket

Step 2) pilots enter score from the paper ticket onto the phone

Step 3) paper scores are then handed in and control tent has to check every paper ticket against every phone entry

Rather than...

Step 1) pilots hand tickets into control tent

Step 2) control tent enters paper ticket scores

Step 3)  err...none

Am I missing something? Likely answer is yes! 

 

[tonym]

Hi Neil

eScoring takes quite a load off the CD and control tent helpers so making their day much easier - CDs and helpers are often flying in the competition too.

Step 1) pilots or helpers write score on paper ticket
Step 2) pilots enter score from the paper ticket onto the phone - actually at the same time as timer is writing the paper ticket.
Step 3) paper scores are then handed in and control tent has to check every paper ticket against every phone entry - at end of contest to check for input errors, 1 ticket per pilot.

Rather than...
Step 1) pilots hand tickets into control tent - paper ticket for every flight (20 pilots x 6 rounds = 120 bits of paper as against 20 with eScoring)
Step 2) control tent enters paper ticket scores
Step 3)  err...none - control tent probably does a final check for input errors

Using eScoring pilots and helpers do most of the input. Without, control tent does most work. Whatever method is used a final check is desirable, humans make mistakes.

Tony

[Mr_SMO]

On 24/09/2022 at 07:55, Steve Haley said:

I also believe full ‘GliderKeeper’ technology which is the core AMRT plus timing unit that’s located in your model which then transmits your score directly, will be the scoring system of the future negating the requirement for time keepers all together.

Thanks Steve

This raises the interesting idea, that for a relatively small turnout, say upto 12 pilots, there would only be 1 slot per round. A comp might start at 1200, and be finished by 1430, being significant for those who travel long distances. 

Maybe this might attract more competitors. Just a thought.