Long Mynd -

[Lundylynda]

A sign migth well be a good idea:) Although not currently up at the moment ( as we are updating) Whitesheet does have a notice attached to a post ( adjacent to our most popular flying site) that gives some information about the club , contact details etc. There is also a telephone number of the National Trust Warden should anyone have any problems. Perhaps a note on the National trust's requirements for flying on the site positioned on a post? migth help:)

We have always found a friendly approach to work and not confrontational as you say Chris most folks dont know ) in most cases:)

In the past the warden has been called to site to give information to visitors.

[isoaritfirst]

For the Long Mynd we would need multiple signs, and some would be very difficult to place, it is simply not an option.

Being confronted by a member is not the way it goes.

With new uninformed fliers they would usually turn up and fly and chat and fly and chat etc with others on the slope - then at sometime during the day the subject of the LMSA invariably just crops ups.

If I see a visitor or a newbie then I will talk to them sooner rather than later about insurance, as I have a responsibility to do that, but in no different a way to how I may ask him about their model or offer advice if its needed. Its usually very welcome.

I recall my own first visit to the slope when a guy asked my if I was insured - I hadn't even considered it and it did take me a few minutes to realise the sense in what he was telling me - it wasn't confrontational at all it was just good advice, which I took happily and sorted out.

I believe that uninsured pilots can fly under close supervision of an insured pilot. Perhaps someone can add flesh to this - I have always thought it was the case and can be used to help newbies get a taster.

Like Linda at Whitesheet - chatting on the slope is enough to make regular users aware of the needs of the landowner. Its a nice soft way to deal with the subject and ensure that any joining member does it willingly and understands the reasons why should join. He will get very little back in the way of publications or club nights etc from us so he does need to understand what we do. ( Incidental we also do have to pay a fee each year to the NT)

Conversely many years ago we were in the situation where an overzealous committee member took it on himself to police the slopes and it caused a lot of problems and ill feeling and almost came to blows on more than one occasion.

It is as simple as we are there to protect the slopes for everyone, if pilots are serious about flying slope then they should be able to see that our approach is there for them not against them, they have nothing but �3 to lose by joining and everything by not joining.

Its not hard.

Yet some fail to make the effort or believe that it just doesn't apply to them.

It is not that they do not know - we are not talking about first time visitors or once a year annual holiday makers etc, although many of these do actually contact and join prior to coming along.

[isoaritfirst]

Who mentioned "household insurance" ? It seems to be inferred that any other insurance is inferior. Mine is as good as BMFA's .

I know full well that you didn't mention Household insurance Geoff - it was just an example and one that I have been confronted by.

I don't know your insurance details but doubt that it offers quite the same member to member benefits that the BMFA insurance does.

For example does it indemnify you if you get involved in committee work or organising events etc.

It may do of course - in fact it may be exactly the same insurer but even if it is then there other reasons why the BMFA is a good idea.

Let me give you a small example,

The long Mynd was almost lost to model fliers prior to the LMSA being formed. The NT were trying to remove us from the hill and every week we were dodging the wardens in a effort to continue flying. The LMSA was only formed because the local regular fliers had no choice. We either became organised and worked with the NT or we lost the site.

There were a lot of considerations at the time and the BMFA sent down their main man to lead the negotiations and help in the setting up of the LMSA.

We now have a great relationship with the NT, have more sites open to us than ever and they also help when pathways etc need work and have previously also open up a path for a disabled member we had at that time.

Without the help of the BMFA this may have been much harder to achieve. We are stronger together than apart.

Personally I have many thousands of pounds tied up in models and consider that the effort I put into the LMSA and the money that I send to the BMFA is a small price worth paying to preserve somewhere that I can enjoy my sport.

[Andy_B]

theres ceratinly been an influx of membership requests since Sunday .............

[isoaritfirst]

theres ceratinly been an influx of membership requests since Sunday .............

Andy Burgoyne

LMSA secretary

[isoaritfirst]

Isn't the bottom line to this that if a bunch of individuals turn up on your or any hill and either

fly a fur ball of foam in front of everyone all day

or

launch a model from 50m away and fly across you

or

turn up with a bunch of scale models and intimidate the local

they are going to trash the day for everyone else, asking them to pack it in my work- or just affect the atmosphere but if they are numpties that are going to do it anyway you're stuffed.

Ian

On the whole the guys that turned up this weekend were well behaved.

There were a lot of models and that brings problems - but that is a very different issue.

This is also not about slope behaviour - for that I could easily open up another thread : (

and maybe I should, but I am running low on energy at the moment - and I am no saint myself.

Nudge.

But heres a few that I see often and equally often complain about - if you see these on your slope then you should also complain.

showing off by hovering back to a landing right infront of the flight line shows me nothing but stupidity and a total lack of imagination.

Launching foamies from the centre of a flight line is equally lazy/daft/stupid especially with lightweight ill set-up combat models.

Flying models directly at a flight line is down right reckless and would get you locked up for a long time if something went wrong. It's akin to aiming your car at a line of people waiting for a bus just to give them a thrill a you pulled away in the last second.

None of these require skill to avoid so avoid them while you still can.

[GeoffN]

As the National trust and the BMFA are working so closely I think it would make life easier to join . So form printed out and posted. If nothing else it will stop the hijacking of this thread I just hope the Kennel Club start up just because I've got a dog.

[Gary B]

Don't know if it would help but the Ivinghoe club seem to be in a very similar position and have a good web page for visitors

I'm not a member but pitch up twice a year, a very friendly bunch of guys with a welcoming attitude and they don't seem to have a problem with anything in particular.

I do fly Crook Peak (WMSA) about the same frequency but usually contact the club secretary before visiting.

GB (part-time sloper!)

[isoaritfirst]

Cheers for that GB I will pass it onto our webmaster, it is almost usable without any changes.

[Gary B]

It does rely on visitors reading the page before they visit of course!!

I've flown big gliders at the Mynd and seen you guys at the North end, it's a fantastic site.

[Janek]

Here's my situation, I'm a Member at Ivinghoe AND Whitesheet, both sites are on National Trust land, as it happens I'm also a member of the National Trust as well

Here's an idea for National Trust based club members.........how about recpricol membership agreements ?, by which I mean, if you're a fully paid up member of one NT based club, couldn't that also entitle you to fly at other NT based clubs ? (I make the assumption BMFA membership is also held)

I actually posed this question, via email, to the National Trust themselves, about a year ago, they didn't even bother to respond.........maybe it's time I rattled their cage again ?

[slopeflyer]

Edited -misread.

[isoaritfirst]

Hi Janek,

As far as the Mynd is concerned our overiding concern is that fliers are BMFA insured.

Part of joining the LMSA is just to allow us to have documented proof that you are, and your Ivinghoe membership does that.

The membership fee covers our admin and our annual fees to the NT, but if you just want to pop up once or twice a year and you are supporting your more local sites administrative bodies we would not have a problem with that.

If you wish to fly more regularly then it seems only fair that you pay your share of the costs and become part of the recognised body of fliers that we could call upon if we ever needed to rally the troops.

I said it earlier we are not there to restrict access, but to protect it.

[Woodstock]

For the Long Mynd we would need multiple signs, and some would be very difficult to place, it is simply not an option.

Your'e going to have to open your mind a bit wider than that. As noted in the video thread, people are not blessed with clairvoyance, and you are expecting way to much of people to "contact" you or to know beforehand what the story is at this site.

And I don't buy this business of a "friendly chat" to inform people of the rules and regs being fine and hunky-dory. No matter how friendly you are, at the moment that the realisation dawns on someone that they are, in effect "trespassing" or "breaking the rules" they will feel some guilt and discomfort. The club could avoid inflicting this on people by informing them in the proper way.

[Andy_B]

Sorry Chris we are not 'blessed ' over here with glorious hills where you might see one other person flying once every 2 years .....and as you know full well you were not best pleased when a paraglider turned up on your favorite hill.

as an example one of the hills we fly on has 3 car parks 4 paths and 3 slopes that are used all of which are at least a 20 minute walk from the nearest car park , do we litter the hill with signs every 100mtrs or so , and how long would these signs last .

Nobody that I am aware of has suggested that people visiting a few times a year are turned away or have to read all the rules and regs ....isnt this why people like sloping rather than power clubs . But why shouldnt people who fly the hills frequently and have done for years join the club that has secured the flying on these hills for all to enjoy .

[isoaritfirst]

Chris when you fly on your local slopes do they all have signs telling you who the landowner is and that you should close all the gates and pick up all your litter etc etc.

I know they don't, I also know that you are responsible enough to try to talk to relevant parties.

Indeed during my visit we made a point of turning a few lines of peat to maintain relationships.

It's just good manners and a little nudge to ensure that all remains happy and well.

If on that day we had driven up and parked our cars on his peat line ignored him working hard and gone off over the fence drinking and laughing and having a great time , he may not have been as welcoming.

We of course are old enough wise enough to realise this so we acted accordingly, and slope heaven awaited us as soon as we finished our labours..

[andyharrold]

Having only flown SLOPE for a few years I remember first reading about the Myndd and the LMSA Members Only rule.

It was only some time after that I realised that membership was only £3.

Maybe the website £3 fee should be more prominently displayed on the home page.

To date I have still not flown the Myndd but will happily pay when I finally get my chance.

The fact that LMSA members could lose their site due to the actions of a few irresponsible folk evading a £3 fee I think is inexcusable.

[Woodstock]

Sorry Chris we are not 'blessed ' over here with glorious hills where you might see one other person flying once every 2 years .....and as you know full well you were not best pleased when a paraglider turned up on your favorite hill.

as an example one of the hills we fly on has 3 car parks 4 paths and 3 slopes that are used all of which are at least a 20 minute walk from the nearest car park , do we litter the hill with signs every 100mtrs or so , and how long would these signs last .

Nobody that I am aware of has suggested that people visiting a few times a year are turned away or have to read all the rules and regs ....isnt this why people like sloping rather than power clubs . But why shouldnt people who fly the hills frequently and have done for years join the club that has secured the flying on these hills for all to enjoy .

I spoke to that paraglider at Camp for his own safety, no other reason. My only displeasure was that he would launch and then start accusing us of dangerous behaviour.

I'm not saying that people shouldn't join the LMSA, I just think you have an unrealistic set of expectations given that there is no way strangers can know about it.

I'm seeing this from the point of view of a stranger (which I would be if I drove over there, and wasn't taken up by members as I was). How would anyone like myself know that they are entering NT land in the first place? How does anyone know what the code of behaviour is? Anywhere else in the world there would be obvious markers that the land ownership has changed, and there would be signs at that point (I don't think there are many access roads onto the Mynd - I think 2?). All I'm saying is that, if there are no such signs, you or the NT have doubtful legal rights to expect anyone to behave differently than on any other piece of unmarked land.

I remembering seeing very clear signs and demarcations in other parts of the UK (Snowdonia for example). Why is this universally accepted method so anathema to you?

[Woodstock]

Chris when you fly on your local slopes do they all have signs telling you who the landowner is and that you should close all the gates and pick up all your litter etc etc.

Some of them do, yes (I didn't take the big crowd to the windfarm or other areas of more private ownership - for good reasons, in that I don't have agreement to take large groups onto those lands.

If there aren't such signs, the landowner would not have a legal leg to stand on regarding trespass or insurance or litter or anything. At the Annascaul peat farm as well as at Camp / Caherconree the land is commonage, and because the "land owners" don't actually care who flies or enters the lands, there are no signs. The same applies at Camp. If the landowners wanted people to conform to a certain code of conduct (as the LMSA do) then of course there would be signs to that effect (or there would be obvious evidence such as a fence and gate - even if it's a string "gate" - to indicate that the land is private - such as at Kinard beach, where we knew we were trespassing).

[isoaritfirst]

You seen to have missed the point Chris, there is no stranger danger.

There is no lack of information.

There is a Web site.

There is the NT office

There are wardens around

there are parked cars with models in

there are around 100 members.

There its lots of information that its available to anyone without littering the area with signs.

If people ignore all of the above then how would they know where to stand on our 4 mile long westerly ridge.