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F3J 2014?


Peter
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Bob Dickenson

I too would like to see a Eurotour event included, although I don't see the need for it to be a drivable event. It is easier & as cheap for me to go to Turkey as it would be to drive to Dover & go to Hollandglide for example.

  With regard to Bernie's f3j/f5j weekend, count me in as long as it doesn't clash with f3b.

 

 Regards, Bob

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I too would like to see a Eurotour event included, although I don't see the need for it to be a drivable event. It is easier & as cheap for me to go to Turkey as it would be to drive to Dover & go to Hollandglide for example.

  With regard to Bernie's f3j/f5j weekend, count me in as long as it doesn't clash with f3b.

 

 Regards, Bob

 

I agree with both Bob & Simon! It's as cheap to fly to many of the Eurotour events as it is to drive these days. Thats why I put the word "Drivable" in parenthese's as I'm not sure where the "Drivable" aspect eminated from. A Eurotour is a Eurotour is a Eurotour in my book. If it were my choice, as I mentioned earlier, I would prefer to revert to the rules we had prior to the 2013 season on this specific area.

 

A thought. Why not ask the pilots who actually fly in F3J comps what they would prefer via a poll on this forum. Now there's an idea :thumbsup:

 

Colin

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So, if we do a wake up weekend, would you like to split the weekend with F3J on one day and F5J on the other or a mixture of both on both days, would we have some volunteer experts to help others over the weekend, if so please let me know who will be available please, would you want it just a a training/setup/flying weekend or some form of (heaven forbid) competition

Date wise thinking of the Penultimate weekend in March or the first weekend in April

As far as the field layout either layout is so similar that both could be laid out together we can also run a slot timer for practice purpose that both could be flown together, just split the flight line in half, give me your thoughts.people

Bernie

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Reason I said driveable Eurotours, was simply cost ,depending on your choice off vehicle ,it is possible to share fuel and ferry expenses,With 2-3 others

Personally I,d rather any eurotour to count as in 2012 and previous years.

But it's the Sftc that makes decisions on rules not the competitors and it appears one off their objections was due to costs

Bernie how about Saturday f5j and f3j clinic / fly in all silent flight welcome with a few experts to help share their experience in either discipline.

Sunday 3 rounds off F3j and 3 rounds of F5j with 6 in fly off 3 from each discipline

Graham

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Well, if I can summaries the feedback from this topic so far:

 

There seems to be no practical way of reverting to the old 6 X one day format so team selection based on a smaller number of 2 day events should continue.

 

There is a complete agreement that competing in Eurotours is a good thing as it helps to raise standards. The problem is how to fairly incorporate at least one Eurotour result into team selection without disadvantaging those who do not have the time or money compete abroad.

 

All agree that Eurotours are hard to win. On the other hand it is quite possible, given benign weather conditions (rarely found in the UK!)  to achieve a high %age score and still finish well down the results - I speak from experience! It therefore follows that allowing unlimited Eurotour results to count just leaves the door open for anyone with enough time and money to keep competing until they finally achieve a good result. Hence the complaint of being able to buy a team place.

 

A possibility is to restrict the allowable Eurotour scores but 'drivable' is unworkable as it depends on where you start from! How about allowing anyone to pre select at least a month in advance from the larger Eurotour events one score that they want to be included in the Team Selection results. That way the variables of weather and luck are the same as they would be for a UK event.

 

The reason for incorporating the current 2 day competitions into RG and the Nats was that these are already scheduled as multi day events so could be absorbed without too much trouble. Organising them as stand alone events on another weekend has some merit as it would make scheduling the other events at RG and the Nats easier but who is volunteering to organise and run them? I will volunteer to do one but certainly not all three. A firm commitment would be needed before this could be incorporated into the 2014 rules.

 

The job of the SFTC is to organise the Nats and to set the rules for running the various BMFA leagues. If anyone wants to run test or training days outside of these leagues then they would be welcomed but it has nothing to do with the SFTC. In previous years there never has been anything in the rules which prevents them being run in addition to the league competitions - apart from the usual shortage, of course!

 

What I said on the first post was: 'I want' needs to be followed by 'I will do'

 

Peter

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Your making it far too complicated Peter!  If you agree that Eurotours are a good thing, just allow no more than one Eurotour to count towards the selection.  People can choose to use that option or not.  I think the 'high %' worry is just that, and pretty irrelevant - people have to enter Eurotours many months in advance, so they don't know what weather they will get.  Look what happened in SA and Turkey.  At least folks will have some Eurotour experience if they use the option, and for me that is more important than if they had an easy ride (lowish probability) in one comp.

 

Simon

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Hello Simon

I am in the fortunate position of being retired and with a reasonable income (no, I did not work in the public sector!). On your plan I could enter multiple eurotours at the beginning of the year then do the European Grand Tour and my best result would count for 50% of my qualifying team selection score.

 

Fair on those who have to work and are short of time and money? I think not.

 

I am suggesting just one result to count, as it has been and still is in the BMFA F3J league, but not with an open ended number attempts, you would have to per-designate which competition you want to count.

 

Peter

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Hello Simon

I am in the fortunate position of being retired and with a reasonable income (no, I did not work in the public sector!). On your plan I could enter multiple eurotours at the beginning of the year then do the European Grand Tour and my best result would count for 50% of my qualifying team selection score.

 

Fair on those who have to work and are short of time and money? I think not.

 

I am suggesting just one result to count, as it has been and still is in the BMFA F3J league, but not with an open ended number attempts, you would have to per-designate which competition you want to count.

 

Peter

 

I think Eurotour scores are being blown out of proportion here.

 

If you study the results for the last 3 years you will find that the top 3 for those years did not do that many Eurotours apart from me :D 

 

In 2011 I did 3 and my best score was 98.2 percent for coming second!! that was because conditions were so bad. I qualified 12th to make the flyoff in Belgium with a terrible percentage. The top 3 in the league that year failed to score better than that. 1 pilot did 1 Eurotour and the other did 1 Eurotour (that was you Pete). In 2012 the top 3 qualifiers failed to score higher than 95.9 and all did 3 Eurotours each. Most of there scores were poor. It is very very difficult to score well in a Eurotour. No way is a way to pay for your place in the team and I for one feel its very sad people should feel that way.

 

I tend to agree though the current qualification of 2 scores from 3, it would be hard to justify using a Eurotour score.

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Pete I can see where you are coming from on this but I have to agree with Simon on this particular point..

 

The reality is that if you can afford to buy and equip 4 moulded F3J models which is what you will need to do if you have any aspirations to be competitive at Euro or Worlds Championships, the cost of going to a few Eurotours pales into insignifiance. The unfortunate reality is that competing at this level requires that you have to layout some pretty serious dosh which is increasing exponentially year on year as the fabrication/model technology advances at an ever faster pace. Its just the way it is unfortunately. Gone are the days where you could be competitive at the top level without spending a fair bit of dosh.

 

For the past 10 years or so, as far as I am aware, the vast majority of UK F3J pilots that have chosen to try and improve their skill levels by going to Eurotours have attended no more than 2. Occasionally 3 perhaps but that is pretty rare. Are we trying to legislate for something here that is really a non problem/issue anyway?

 

The issue you raise of a Eurotour being able to count for 50% of your overall qualifying score though is a valid point that needs addressing. This is why I personally would advocate that it should be the best 3 from 4 qualifying scores to count which would mean that a qualifying Eurotour score falls to being a maximum of 33.3 % of your overall qualifying score. However, I think just about everyone would agree that generally it is easier to achieve a high % score at domestic F3J UK events than it ever is at Eurotours. So allthough in theory whilst it could potentially count as 33.3% of your overall qualifying score the weighting/probability against this happening is a lot higher compared to a domestic UK F3J event.

 

Lets hear please from some of the other regular F3J pilots that compete in the UK on this issue.

 

Colin

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Has a single team selection contest ever been considered?

 

Its been talked about but would really be the kiss of death for F3J in the UK. One of the reasons there are still some entries for Radioglide and the Nats is because they are part of qualification.

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4th competition?  Nice idea Colin, when and where will you organise it?

 

Peter

 

Peter

 

No one needs to organise any "forth event" at all. What I have proposed is that we keep the 3 x UK 2 day events that we now have but allow one Eurotour score to be used to replace one of one of the 3 UK events. Meaning the "Fourth Event" is an external  Eurotour competition, Thus one's overall qualifying league score would be the best 3 from 4 rather than 2 from 3. I thought I had explained that clearly in my post, but obviously not it seems!

 

BTW, interesting analysis by Austin on the UK pilots attendance over the past 3 years of Eurotour events which clearly shows, as I suspected, that we are  trying to sort out a problem that doesn't really exist.

 

Colin

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Hello Simon

I am in the fortunate position of being retired and with a reasonable income (no, I did not work in the public sector!). On your plan I could enter multiple eurotours at the beginning of the year then do the European Grand Tour and my best result would count for 50% of my qualifying team selection score.

 

Fair on those who have to work and are short of time and money? I think not.

 

I am suggesting just one result to count, as it has been and still is in the BMFA F3J league, but not with an open ended number attempts, you would have to per-designate which competition you want to count.

 

Peter

 

Peter, I think you've now taken it from complicated to perverse, by inventing relatively unlikely scenarios!  What are we trying to achieve here - finding the best 3 pilots who attend UK (well English) events only, or the 3 best pilots to represent the UK against the rest of Europe or the World?  I believe it should be the latter.  

 

To get that means immense dedication and motivation.  I don't see much of that if people aren't even prepared/encouraged to travel outside of their local area.  Secondly, only those that have competed at the highest levels know the degree of stress and pressure involved, particularly week long events.  That is a real test of personality, and attending Eurotours helps come to terms with that.  Then there is being exposed to different organisers, who may have subtly different interpretation of rules and procedures, and will probably be less lenient/lax than we tend to be in the UK.  I don't see Eurotours as an easy route to the team, but I do see them as a necessity to prospective team members.  Conservative and constrained thinking is not the path to a successful UK team, or even a way to improve numbers competing.

 

Simon

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I've been out of competitive full-size gliding for a while but I wondered how the British team was selected and found out just now.

 

I had no idea but it's really quite simple, all pilots who have placed in the top 50% in a Nationals comp in the last two years (so that could be only one year) vote for their choice, no points or placings ('numbers game' as I would call it) appear to be considered though I'm sure it has relevance!

 

There are six classes with six pilots in each and looking at the names just selected for 2014 I wouldn't argue with any of them.

 

I could find out more on how this process works and how long they have been using it.

 

Radical perhaps but it obviously works, we are doing very well in full-size gliding at the moment and have a history of producing world champions. The secret is they just fly a lot in rubbish UK weather conditions and can squeak round a cross-country task on a sparrow's fart!

 

 Gary

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I have to agree with Simon and Colin on this. As someone who has competed in the odd Eurotour event, I think it essential that anyone wishing to represent the UK in a major event needs the experience of competing against other countries. It is very noticeable how different the air can be on the continent, which sounds an odd comment but it is nevertheless true.  It is also quite eye opening when you witness first hand, new techniques of launching, flying and landing which develop from year to year. Not all suit everybody but if the UK is not to fall even further behind the rest of the world, we need to at least keep up.

The other point of someone being able to "buy a UK team place" is not valid in my opinion. Firstly, I know of no one who is so keen to make the team that they would invest the time and money to attend multiple events in the hope of earning more points. Secondly, the chances of being able to increase their score by flying in Europe is not even worth considering because the standard is much higher. Without experiencing Eurotour conditions, a flyer would wonder what they had gotten themselves into on the major stage.

Lastly, I think Wixy has a very valid point for someone not able to make all the UK 2 day events to at least have the opportunity to gather another counting score so at least have a chance of making the team if they so wish. Me, I have been plodding away for years but have never made the team (although I came close this year if I hadn't screwed up the Nats) but that doesn't stop me from wanting to improve and taking part in Eurotours has certainly helped. I'm all for allowing it and feel that we are over complicating things and coming up with issues which are not relevant.

Here's a radical thought. If someone does want to invest so much by attending all the Eurotour events (not going to happen), maybe that is the type of commitment that we need in people.

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Now I am confused!

 

Colin is suggesting using 'the best 3 from 4 rather than 2 from 3' with a Eurotour as the fourth event.

 

The problem that Wixy correctly raised was that if a pilot could not make one of the UK events then both their other scores had to count and they were therefore disadvantaged which is a perfectly valid point. How does making it 3 out of 4 help that problem? It would mean that anyone who cannot go to Eurotours must attend all the UK comps and have all 3 of their scores counting. Even someone who missed a UK event and made up their 3 scores with a Eurotour would have no dropped competition score so would be in the same position that they were in 2013.

 

Maintaining the 2 out of 3 but allowing an additional Eurotour to count instead of one of the UK comps is certainly an option. In previous years a Eurotour has been counted only instead of a UK score and not in addition to it ie you could not use a Eurotour score to substitute for a competition that you did not attend.

 

The rules would have to be changed to allow a Eurotour as an extra competition so that for some would mean selection would be based on the best 2 out of 4 scores. Is this what is wanted? Or do we count a Eurotour score only for those who missed a UK competition in order to make up their 3?

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Bob Dickenson

Peter, as my understanding of this goes, the earlier team selection process was that RG, interglide & the Nats would be qualifying for selection. Extra to this, a eurotour event could be incuded to make the best 3 out of 4. I have no problem with this idea. If it means that I can,t get to a eurotour that year then I have to live with the best that I can do. I appreciate that part of the argument is that it is possible to attend a small eorotour & have an easy ride. Trust me, as one that has flown in league events in both Scotland & the South, I don't believe there is such a thing as an easy ride to be had anywhere.

 Regards,Bob

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Peter, as my understanding of this goes, the earlier team selection process was that RG, interglide & the Nats would be qualifying for selection. Extra to this, a eurotour event could be incuded to make the best 3 out of 4. I have no problem with this idea. If it means that I can,t get to a eurotour that year then I have to live with the best that I can do. I appreciate that part of the argument is that it is possible to attend a small eorotour & have an easy ride. Trust me, as one that has flown in league events in both Scotland & the South, I don't believe there is such a thing as an easy ride to be had anywhere.

 Regards,Bob

 

Bob

 

You've got it in one mate :)  Hopefully this format would also encourage people to attend Eurotours but those that choose not too are still able to put in 3 qualifying scores. Ditto those people who choose not to or cant attend all 3 UK qualifying events can still get in the required 3 qualifying scores by using a Eurotour event to make up the 3 qualifying events.

 

As Bob says there are no easy rides to be had anywhere.

 

Colin

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With this plan those who cannot attend a Eurotour contest would have to attend all 3 UK competitions and have all 3 count to stand any chance of qualifying.

 

Those who, for whatever reason, cannot fly in all 3 UK competitions have the chance to substitute a Eurotour result but all the scores would count.

 

Only those few who can attend all 3 UK comps and go to Europe would have the advantage of dropping a score.

 

Personally I am happy with this because I can go to Europe but I suspect that there might be some objections probably from those who are not contributing to this thread.

 

I would like to hear some more backing for this idea before proposing it to the SFTC.

 

Peter

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